Non-ironman classic Diablo?

[Hureg]

On USEast, "Diablo LE". On USWest, try "Diablo DSF-1". They aren't exactly brimming with activity, but a slight chance at a game is better than none. Unfortunately, if you do find folks in Diablo LE, there is about a 50% chance of them being idiots, but on the bright side they should still be legit.

. While in LE, if you stick to the players who are actually on diablo and not one of the other b.net games and avoid Obituary then the stupidity factor should go down considerably. Some on the other games are nice though too.

As for DSF-1, Kp or OWW, plays two characters at a time! Something that is well worth seeing in my opinion.

"Diablo LE" is the 'Legit' Diablo forum IIRC. I find it is pretty hit or miss as to whether or not people are there or not.

LE was a community channel that ended up taking over from 'X' as the 'legit' haven on east gateway, after the in-house cheating of some of the 'X' regulars ruined the community there some years ago.

The 'Legit' Diablo Forum http://www.diablo-forum.de.vu is product of the 'Die Administration', a german guild who evolved the Diablo Saver scanning program into Diablo Guard. A program that largely eliminated the threat of people passing item saving off as 'legit'. Die Admin were a PK guild, cheater killers who went around for some 2 or so years, logged absolutely everyone, checked for double ups all the while and made the log list of the scanner what it is today. They wanted an english speaking forum as apposed to the previous german ones so as to expand their contacts with the 'legit' community. Most of the people that use the Diablo Forum are European players from the Europe gateway.


By the way Griselda, somewhere along the line, on one of the updates, blizzard ditched the 'retail' in its channel names.

The princess Leia thing at the Lounge is a painting I found that just happened to be titled "Griselda". So, I'm fond of it for that reason. Over here, it's Plush Elvis Cthulhu, from a picture I took myself from our Plush Cthulhu collection. Both are aspects of my personality, I suppose.

Image Search Google - I found a HUREG!!!!!!! Well, Zureg but it came up so hey

I'm not quite sure what I think of it yet though. It's some Mongolian King or General or something from when they were running amuck. Am no good with attachments and have no idea how to scale the image down to fit it here though.

[Occhidiangela]

The 'Legit' Diablo Forum www.diablo-forum.de.vu is product of the 'Die Administration', a german guild who evolved the Diablo Saver scanning program into Diablo Guard. A program that largely eliminated the threat of people passing item saving off as 'legit'.

Die Admin were a PK guild, cheater killers who went around for some 2 or so years, logged absolutely everyone, checked for double ups all the while and made the log list of the scanner what it is today. They wanted an english speaking forum as apposed to the previous german ones so as to expand their contacts with the 'legit' community. Most of the people that use the Diablo Forum are European players from the Europe gateway.

So they used a scanner to find dupers (I assume your "double ups" is what I would call a "dupe" or "duplicate item") and made a hit list of dupers and other kinds of cheaters.

Has that made bnet Diablo I any better?

I have not played on bnet for a while in public, did a few Passworded games a few months ago, and did an Immortal Hero last year with a Sorcerer.

Heck, I can't remember my password anymore, I may have to start all over again. Blah.

Occhi

[Griselda]

I don't think anyone over here was ever a huge fan of scanners, mostly because we had a fairly tightly knit group where they weren't needed. If something really nice fell, more often than not there were witnesses to the drop right in the game, and usually we were able to distribute things fairly well, too.

Of course, things weren't as peachy in other parts of the 'net, so I can understand others' choices as well. At this point, we're probably better looking for similarities than differences, I'd imagine.

I managed to find my BNM's and SUM's save files, so now I probably have someone for normal, NM, and hell play. Of course, I still suck at the game (the summoner had a little run in with some NM fire clan today just to remind her to be careful), but I'm getting better.

[Hureg]

So they used a scanner to find dupers (I assume your "double ups" is what I would call a "dupe" or "duplicate item") and made a hit list of dupers and other kinds of cheaters.

Has that made bnet Diablo I any better?

I have not played on bnet for a while in public, did a few Passworded games a few months ago, and did an Immortal Hero last year with a Sorcerer.

Heck, I can't remember my password anymore, I may have to start all over again. Blah.

Occhi

D1 accounts aren't affected by name change so you can play the same character with a different name/password.

It's a hit list of item codes not players. Each item has a unique code, a double or duplicate of which, acually produced within the game is rare enough to be insignificant. So they made a log list of all the double ups they stumbled into and all the hacked items and created, or updated, a scanner to check against those item codes. The list is a fairly substantial one, certainly covers all those items that public gamers have/are introduced to. It also allows you the option of creating your own log list.

As far as making gaming diablo on bnet any better, I'd probably say that it did to a degree. It allows for walking in and out of public games without having to say a word to figure out what you've stumbled into. It also allowed for putting a bit more immediate trust into new found friends. Of course the flaw is that anybody who knows a lot about computers and has any real interest in trying to decieve people can supposedly bypass it somehow and don't for a second think that public games on b.net aren't still dominated by cheaters. Bouncing in and out of a couple (if you can find them) and alt tabbing to diablo guard (found here http://www.legit-diablo.de.vu ) will tell you as much.

[Griselda]

Maybe I should explain the point of view that our community has had for a while, so that you will know where Occhi was coming from.

Scanners were never commonly accepted within the variants or Diablo Strategy Forum (DSF) community, to the point where they were a hotbutton topic.

(That said, I completely accept your group's different history with them. I'm just trying to provide some historical perspective.)

Armin wrote an editorial against scanners, which is still available here. Now, I wouldn't go as far as he does and say that scanners are cheats. Heck, I used a 3rd party program for muling myself (its author played a mean BNR, too! ). But, I do agree with his position that taking time to learn about the game, and to chat with potential playing partners, will help you to determine legit players with reasonable accuracy, perhaps more accuracy than the lists a scanner uses.

The only personal problem I had with scanners was one of a false positive. I was playing in a passworded variants game, and somebody who I had never met before came in and almost instantly announced that my Stonecleaver was a dupe (of course, it wasn't). False positives seemed to be very common, and they sowed confusion and suspicion when they happened.

In a public game, all bets are off. You do what you have to do, I guess. I didn't play pubbies, so it would be unfair to comment on that. But, I do think that scanners can undermine trust in private games, and that's where the DSF community's historical resistance to scanners has come from.

[Nystul]

The 'Legit' Diablo Forum www.diablo-forum.de.vu is product of the 'Die Administration', a german guild who evolved the Diablo Saver scanning program into Diablo Guard. A program that largely eliminated the threat of people passing item saving off as 'legit'. Die Admin were a PK guild, cheater killers who went around for some 2 or so years, logged absolutely everyone, checked for double ups all the while and made the log list of the scanner what it is today. They wanted an english speaking forum as apposed to the previous german ones so as to expand their contacts with the 'legit' community. Most of the people that use the Diablo Forum are European players from the Europe gateway.

I have visited the Legit Diablo Forum in the past, and it should be pointed out (for those who don't bother to click on the link) that they have a lot more in common with RBD than simply playing the game without cheating. There are DSF roots, there has been Ironman activity ongoing for a long time there, and other variants, roleplaying, etc. seem to be a part of the culture.

I am a bit confused by the methodology behind this log list. Let's say I find leather armor of the wolf with my new character, and happen to stumble into a Die Admin member in a public game. He scans and logs me as per the usual. I guess he will be able to know about this item, which is a bit disconcerting since he is a PK who now knows all of my legit items without my consent, but there is no need to get into all of that. This item and my other items are logged, the guy decides I'm legit, and we coop for a while. Later I run into someone who is trying my Geezer variant, and since I happen to be using the ideal armor for a Geezer, I decide to give it to him. Now if this guy gets logged by Die Admin, how will they know whether I have saved a copy of the item or not when I gave it to him? Maybe he trades it to another Geezer at some point and now we could have 3 people logged with the same item.

To make a long story short, how are they able to distinguish a duped item from one which has merely been traded?

[Hureg]

I can see that you are rather hesitant on the subject Griselda. Let me assure you that I'm not taking any sort of a side here, if the sides are the legit diablo forum and the RBD. I don't particularly belong to either, I have friends here and there all over but if you were going to class me as anything, then it would be as a Japanese player, even though I speak maybe 20 words of japanese.

Whether or not people are a fan of scanners, whether they should be considered legit or whatever, really doesn't matter at all in my opinion. If someone really wants to call me a cheater for using one, then they can go right ahead; I mean what the hell do I care. Chances are pretty slim that anyone that would refuse to play with me on such grounds would have anything to offer me anyway.

To be honest I really don't have a lot of patience for the high and mighty attitude I've seen pop up time and again within the 'legit' community. How people can go about dictating whether or not people can use a program that if used in the right way, doesn't affect gameplay in any way whatsoever, other than potentially avoiding cheaters, is quite beyond me. There's a certain level of arrogance and a definate lack of originality in it as far as I'm concerned. I wasn't overly impressed with Armin's (outdated) report on the scanner issue to be honest. Anyone can tell you that an idiot is going to more harm than good with a scanner but I don't see how that's evidence enough to condemn such a program. A cautionary note would have been far better suited than simply flat out saying they shouldn't be used at all. His mentality of 'it's a third party program, it's cheating' is rather closed minded in my opinion.

I guess he will be able to know about this item, which is a bit disconcerting since he is a PK who now knows all of my legit items without my consent, but there is no need to get into all of that.

I agree but in their defence, even though I am unsure myself of the particulars, the way I understand it, they only pked those they had good reason to believe were cheating. Whether or not that makes the practice any better is up to you all to personally decide.

To make a long story short, how are they able to distinguish a duped item from one which has merely been traded?

There's a scaling system. Had to be found 3 times to be logged. Rare dupes were considered to be numbers logged less than 10 times. A rare dupe appears differently on the scanner to a common dupe (item logged more than 10 times). That's about where common sense would kick in and you could start to rationalise whether or not you have a cheater on your hands or not. Once again I state that I don't encourage idiots to use this program.

[Nystul]

There's a scaling system. Had to be found 3 times to be logged. Rare dupes were considered to be numbers logged less than 10 times. A rare dupe appears differently on the scanner to a common dupe (item logged more than 10 times). That's about where common sense would kick in and you could start to rationalise whether or not you have a cheater on your hands or not. Once again I state that I don't encourage idiots to use this program.

Seems reasonable. I suppose the updated dupe lists have shed some interesting light on some of the "legit" communities where everybody seems to have jewelry with the exact same stats.

I've never used a scanner, but I understand why people find them helpful. At this point, I'm far more interested in seeing the tactics a person uses than knowing what equipment he has. If his only goal in the game is to get uber gear, the odds are that we will get sick of each other after a game or two whether he is legit or not.

[Occhidiangela]

I can see that you are rather hesitant on the subject Griselda. Let me assure you that I'm not taking any sort of a side here, if the sides are the legit diablo forum and the RBD.

As I understand the issue, it is a PvP guild that uses scanners. So, you can scan an opponent before a duel. That nicely eliminates a thing called "surprise."

And you tell me you think Armin's position is out of line? Armin's appeal to rule is based on a core theory that games are defined by their rules, and that unless all parties to a game agree on a variation of a rule -- whoa, that might be a variant -- then the base rules of a game have to be the default rule set. In Diablo I, that means . . . dare I say it . . . the game as purchased and patched by the creator of the game.

We won't fall into the "code is the final arbiter" trap since duping is allowed by the code, and Blizz never bothered to close the loophole, but a legit player understands both the letter and the spirit of honest and honorable game play.

I am rather confused at your disdain for Armin's position.

Occhi

[Cyrene]

I’m an old Diablo dog, and I certainly don’t speak for RBD. My personality was always more suited to the Asylum, though RBD has sort of adopted me and been most kind.

I would like to toss out a couple of thoughts though.

First off, Armin wrote that 6 or more YEARS ago. A lifetime in computer gaming is 6 months these days. He was writing about a time and place and game-culture that belonged to the last century.


Secondly, this paragraph, though I understand where you are coming from, is going to produce some negative reactions—not so much due to your stance, but to the way you expressed it.

To be honest I really don't have a lot of patience for the high and mighty attitude I've seen pop up time and again within the 'legit' community. How people can go about dictating whether or not people can use a program that if used in the right way, doesn't affect gameplay in any way whatsoever, other than potentially avoiding cheaters, is quite beyond me. There's a certain level of arrogance and a definate lack of originality in it as far as I'm concerned. I wasn't overly impressed with Armin's (outdated) report on the scanner issue to be honest. Anyone can tell you that an idiot is going to more harm than good with a scanner but I don't see how that's evidence enough to condemn such a program.

Armin, back in the day, said, more or less, “Your best tool is your brain, trust it instead of 3rd party programs”. You are saying, if I understand correctly, “3rd party programs are a good tool, but you need to use your brain to use them correctly.” I don’t see a large gap between the two positions. If I were forced to pick a side displaying “arrogance and a definite lack of originality”, I would be forced to pick the one rigidly relying on third-party tools, by definition.


Thirdly, does anyone actually care anymore? Assuming I can actually find my D1 CD (I’m still looking, Griz and Nystul), other player’s equipment is going to be the least of my worries. Let’s face it—anyone who feels the need to equip Ob-Zod-Dreamflange-Socks-of-the-Whale is going to be a total screwup and a horrible team-mate anyway, and I’m not going to be playing with them for long. Or, in other words, Armin was right (damn the Swiss—they are so, erm, ORDERLY!).


--Cy

now where is that damn cd?