Non-ironman classic Diablo?

[Hureg]

Armin, back in the day, said, more or less, “Your best tool is your brain, trust it instead of 3rd party programs”. You are saying, if I understand correctly, “3rd party programs are a good tool, but you need to use your brain to use them correctly.” I don’t see a large gap between the two positions. If I were forced to pick a side displaying “arrogance and a definite lack of originality”, I would be forced to pick the one rigidly relying on third-party tools, by definition

My view is that your best tool is your brain and my brain tells me that there is nothing wrong with using a scanner if you are aware of its limitations. Judging on what he wrote, Armin agreed, yet he still went about undermining the potential uses of such programs by firstly, calling them cheats and secondly using examples of idiots pointing fingers and causing mass confusion and paranoia. Now say that some idiot reads his thoughts at any stage over the past 7 years and then shortly after stumbles into a game with me, says "you're not legit, you use a scanner" and dosen't listen to me when I politely and calmly tell him that it looks as though, he's stumbled upon an item that's unfortunately not legit. How is that helping?

All I'm saying is that Armin's stance doesn't allow for the other perspective. Passing duped items off as legit is unfortunately a part of Diablo's history. Condemning a tool that is very useful at preventing that possibility just doesn't make any sense to me. His 'A Stance on Scanners' is just too full of bias to be constructive in my opinion and that's why I didn't like it.

Just a note as well, the only reason I use the program is for the playing diablo off of the hard drive option to avoid the dodgy disk spin that Diablo gets when run off of an XP system. I have no other use for the program but there's a big difference between not using a program and condemning it. I mean, unless we are talking dueling/pking, how is it anyone elses business how one goes about deciding who to play with?

[Griselda]

Hureg,

I don't think anyone here is trying to attack your choice to use the program. There are a lot of grey areas, even in a simple game like Diablo, and at some point we all need to make choices for ourselves. I repect your choice.

Perhaps that is why I came across sounding hesitant, according to your earlier post. That was not my intention, and I don't feel that it's the truth. I don't personally like scanners. I am not hesitant about that point of view at all. That is why *I* choose not to use one. I really don't much care whether other people use scanners or not, as long as their choice doesn't wreck gameplay with comments like, "some of your mana potions in your full inventory are dupes!".

You don't need to defend your use of a scanner here, and you certainly don't need to represent a group of people that you have associated with in the past.

However, I do. I want you to understand the history of our community, and how we have gotten to where we are. I'm not asking you to agree with my point of view. I'm asking for your understanding. Armin's article is a piece of our history, and it had its impact in its time. He is not here to debate it point by point with anyone, and that's not why I quoted it, anyway.

I just want you to know where we are coming from. That's all. This is an old argument. Can we leave it in the past? Please?

[Occhidiangela]

Socks-of-the-Whale

Or, in other words, Armin was right (damn the Swiss—they are so, erm, ORDERLY!).
--Cy

OK, so are you for or against the use of footwear in Diablo I?

I know where my CD is, I played a bit a few weeks back, Iron Man first act. Then, other things came up.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Many words to protest "I am a responsible scanner user."

Thanks for sharing, and goodonya. I am a responsible drunk. Really.

I am also an irresponsible caffeine abuser.

Scanners were available on bnet in Diablo II. I had any number of pubbies comment on my equipment, to include surprise at some of the unorthodox items I had equipped on a tri elemental sorceress, East, pre 1.10.

When I was in a pubby game -- most RB folk were not HC players -- I was typically doing a Bloody Run in the interest of closing the gap in HC so I could proceed to the next diff level. Or, perhaps I was getting a waypoint, or cleaning up a quest here and there.

I got tired of people wanting to talk about my equipment. My canned response was "It doesn't matter, let's kill monsters" or "less chat, more splat."

I then had people call me names for not sharing. I also had plenty of fine bnet denizens give me random crap for my "gimp" set up. Their scanners allowed them plenty of chance to display their jerkoffishness. The also allowed a PK to assess his odds of a successful scroll hack, or other sneak attack.

Scanners aren't necessary, but they are an option. Why one chooses that option reflects what one, the person, brings to the multiplayer game environment. One's attitude, one's view of "the online game world."

Scanners are a substitute for human interaction; for a conversation; for getting to know people; for dealing with the variability in trust and trustworthiness that is the human part of the on line gaming environment.

Scanners are thus, for my nickel, the perfect tool for a Perfect Tool; the cop out for someone who has weak interpersonal skills; the work around for someone who has no patience for chatting with people, who they view as some "others" connected by a fiber optic cable; the tool for those whose personality is as digital, limited, and self-contained as a Java script; the crutch for the crowd whose world view is "I have to control this, it is a PC, and it is (due to its nature) something I can control. Those horrid people I have to interact with I can't control. I must have a tool to help me deal with the chaos that is other people, to assert control of my game-time-space."

There, a new version, up to date, as of 27 June 2006, of the high and mighty position that you were literally begging for, even after Gris very concisely explained the norms of a group. Are you satisfied that two can play the sneering game on this topic?

Don't know you (in an on-line sense) well enough to know if you fit the brazen stereotype that my little paragraph postulates about scanner users.

If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, consider why (beyond that narrow assessment I just typed) scanners are seen by others differently than you see them, even those not actually "high and mighty."

We used to get charges of "elitism" at the DSF, Lurker Lounge, and occasionally here, all the time.

Good.

Why would I want to hang out with anyone who wasn't unique, eccentric, and singular? There are drones everywhere in life, the spice is in the unusual, the novel, the clever.

Sturgeon's Law can also apply to people, and groups of people. Don't be a 90 percenter. That is what going Beyond is about, in part.

Occhi

[Nystul]

Scanners were available on bnet in Diablo II.

But unless you played Open characters exclusively, this comparison is already flawed beyond belief. Even if you did play Open characters, you still had far more protection from griefers than the D1 public gamer.

I got tired of people wanting to talk about my equipment. My canned response was "It doesn't matter, let's kill monsters" or "less chat, more splat."

This attitude seems rather contradictory to your theory that scanners are a poor replacement for human conversation. It sounds like you were actually the one in the hurry to just play the game, without taking a lot of time to know your playing partners first.

The also allowed a PK to assess his odds of a successful scroll hack, or other sneak attack.

If it were D1, he wouldn't need to assess his odds. He would just instantly kill you. And res you quickly so you could die again and he can get your stuff.

Scanners aren't necessary, but they are an option. Why one chooses that option reflects what one, the person, brings to the multiplayer game environment. One's attitude, one's view of "the online game world."

This is essentially true.

Scanners are a substitute for human interaction; for a conversation; for getting to know people; for dealing with the variability in trust and trustworthiness that is the human part of the on line gaming environment.

But this is perhaps only one side of a coin. How much time are you going to put into getting to know a public gamer? Surely not enough time to actually trust him in the "I'd accept an obs/zod from him at his word" sense, or he will have already left to find someone who just wants to play the darn game. The scanner user could actually come across as more courteous and less nosey than the person who tries to pry the info out through interrogation. Some people are just willing to take the risk of playing and finding out who is trustworthy the hard way, but other's don't like getting PK'd/MK'd/kicked/items stolen/etc. It's always been a compromise one must consider, and as the number of players on b.net dwindles the situation does not get any easier.

We used to get charges of "elitism" at the DSF, Lurker Lounge, and occasionally here, all the time.

Good.

Perhaps it is selective memory, but I don't remember DSF, the Asylum, or RBD, ever being referred to as "elitists". As the term is applied to the Lurker Lounge, it is most definitely Not a Good Thing. Do you realize people actually got flamed on the LurkerLounge for asking D2 strategy questions, because their questions were too easy? Apparently, one was expected to look at every strategy guide on the internet before asking any questions. Although, you know if it was someone with a familiar name doing the asking, it wouldn't have been a problem. To me, it was sickening. And the really sad part is that the people like Jarulf who actually contributed to those strategy guides would be willing to answer these questions a dozen times without a complaint... The elitists of the Lounge and the elite of the Lounge have always been two very different groups.

I guess the point here is that the way of the Asylum (and presumably RBD by inheritance) was to be elite without being elitist. The BNMs were not a guild, the BNM rules were open for anyone to play by, the forum, even game names and passwords, all very much within the public domain. The belief was that variants are so masochistic that anyone who would willingly participate could be welcomed with open arms. Unfortunately, it doesn't keep the spambots out. But otherwise, it pretty much worked out great.

Why would I want to hang out with anyone who wasn't unique, eccentric, and singular? There are drones everywhere in life, the spice is in the unusual, the novel, the clever.

Sturgeon's Law can also apply to people, and groups of people. Don't be a 90 percenter. That is what going Beyond is about, in part.

It's a great philosophy. But if 100 people are playing Diablo on USEast, and 80 of them are probably not even legit by the most lenient of standards, and you want to pick and choose only the cream of the crop (10% who play variants, roleplay, etc.) as playing partners, you are down to about 2 acceptable players on all of USEast at any given time. Since you are one of the two, if the other one gets turned off by your scanner rant, you are down to playing solo...

[Roland]

Now say that some idiot reads his thoughts at any stage over the past 7 years and then shortly after stumbles into a game with me, says "you're not legit, you use a scanner" and dosen't listen to me when I politely and calmly tell him that it looks as though, he's stumbled upon an item that's unfortunately not legit. How is that helping?

I still find it laughable that you can have the gall to tell ANYONE that they may not be legit based upon a flawed system of comparison. I've personally witnessed the game dupe items without my input, by dropping two uniques (I don't think I've seen magicals, but I have seen potions, and gold) that happened to spawn at the exact same moment (I think it was a Chain Lightning blast; I honestly don't recall the item, but it wasn't anything worth getting excited over). If I had somehow managed to get ahold of both of those items, without the game automatically deleting them (as it did), am _I_ suddenly not legit, because the _game_ duped an item out of pure chance? Certainly not, even by a Purists standards (which I have been for far longer in Diablo than not).

I recall a time when I was in a game with a good friend, a fellow member of the DSF community and a known legit. I remember us pooling our items in town (in seperate areas, so as to keep from getting mixed up), and one of our items got deleted as a dupe. Now, keep in mind, I was a Purist. ALL the items I had in my possession were found by me, almost entirely in solo runs (since MP games by that point were not as common, and I did lots of Normal / Hell runs for item-finding), so there was no way he duped my item, especially since it had come straight from my backpack to the ground, with no one else around to handle it. I know for a fact that he never touched my items to dupe them, since anytime we had just gotten into the game, hadn't even ventured out of town, and hadn't even come near me yet. Improbably? Certainly. But not impossible, by any stretch of the imagination. When you're dealing with a finite supply of numbers, sooner or later you're going to get duplicates.

All I'm saying is that Armin's stance doesn't allow for the other perspective.

Neither does yours. You both subscribe to the extremes of each view, without considering any gray area. But you know what? There really IS no gray area. You have no right to view someone else's inventory, or character stats, or anything else about them unless they authorize it. It's an invasion of privacy, to say the least, and is truly poor manners. Not to mention that, should your oh-so-holy scanner happen upon a dupe, there's no concrete evidence anywhere to prove that it was intentionally duped by the owner, or by someone else who passed it on to its current owner. The only evidence you have is purely circumstancial, and overall weak. Your supposed "helping" by "informing" him that he "may" not be legit is a virtually groundless assumption gained from a breach of privacy and trust, and if it was me you were pulling that with, I'd make it a point to avoid you in gaming.

YOU may not consider scanners cheats. In fact, most people probably wouldn't, even if they don't like them. But I certainly don't like the idea of someone scanning my character to see if I'm "legit" in the eyes of some worthless pile of code, created by someone who had too much time on their hands and read too many conspiracy theory books. Whether I think scanners are cheats really doesn't matter, but for the record, I don't consider them "cheats" in the classic sense of giving an advantage to your opponent (since I don't duel, although used in that case I would consider them cheats). However, I do find them invasive, wasteful, and just downright worthless, and anyone who uses them to be just as bad. That someone would deem themselves more important than someone else soley for the sake of their own insecurity and superiority is beyond rude, and certainly not someone I would enjoy gaming with. But that's me. Everyone's different.

You want true legitness? Play pure. Don't accept trades from anyone. That's the only TRUE way to be legit, when it comes to items. Always has, always will. Anything less is subject to taint.

I've said my peace on the matter. This argument has been hashed too many times all too many years ago. I don't feel like re-enacting it all over again. Hureg, if you take offense to my stance, well, I guess you'll just have to deal with it. I don't take offense to yours, and I wasn't trying to attack you personally, but you sparked the debate, and so your words became the target of debate. Sorry if you feel singled out.

Gris, I myself have recently gotten back into Diablo. Don't know how much concrete time I can commit to it lately, but I'll be sure to try and hop on sometime to hook up for a game with you. My account, as always, is RolandDT (..2, ..3, etc.). I'll try and give a holler if I know I'm going to be on sometime.

Note:
For all you other Diablo old-timers out there, I'm NOT about to raise that tired old argument as to whether Purist is the ONLY legit form of play (I don't feel that it is; it's well within the realm of possibility to be legit and not be a Purist). However, it is the only GUARANTEED way, at least in terms of dupes. I don't think there's anyone, anywhere, who can argue otherwise. Now, as for bug abuse, that's an entirely different matter, and frankly, I don't think there's any way to know for sure whether someone has done that or not. Even Purists can abuse the MS-No-Stun bug, for example.

Edit:
Hureg, I would have no problems gaming with you, so long as I could trust (I'd have to take you at your word, of course, but that's what it's really all about in the end, IMHO) that you would not use a scanner on me without my permission first, and that you would respect any decision on the matter before and after. I have nothing to hide, never have, but that's not the point. It is, as the saying goes, the principle: if someone does not trust me, I have absolutely no reason to trust them, and being who I am, if I cannot trust someone, I am wasting my time with them. It's nothing personal, it's just who and how I am. My offer to game with Gris is equally extended to you, and anyone else, so long as you can respect me enough to abide by my personal wishes. I do not look down on you for your decisions about scanner use, although I do question the wisdom of your stance. However, I mean no disrespect (even if I perhaps came off a little harsh in my above post; I cannot say, but if I was, I apologize now), and your decisions and opinions are yours, and you certainly have a right to them.

[Occhidiangela]

Scanners were available on bnet in Diablo II.

But unless you played Open characters exclusively, this comparison is already flawed beyond belief. Even if you did play Open characters, you still had far more protection from griefers than the D1 public gamer.

[
Scanners added to dumbacity in Diablo II bnet, and was one more factor in pubbies being hard to tolerate. Excuse the f*** out of me for not always having a connection, or a time to be able to play, with only the RB crowd. The first half a year, I could barely ever stay connected to US West.

What more do you need for a comparison? OK, so Town Kill never got made for Realms. BFD!

[i]I got tired of people wanting to talk about my equipment. My canned response was "It doesn't matter, let's kill monsters" or "less chat, more splat."

This attitude seems rather contradictory to your theory that scanners are a poor replacement for human conversation. It sounds like you were actually the one in the hurry to just play the game, without taking a lot of time to know your playing partners first.

[/i]
You are beyond full of crap on that one. Comparing equipment in bnet D 2 was about as useful a conversation as "Hey, let's see who can claim who has a bigger Johnson." It is for kids, not adults. It wasn't done to start a conversation anyone with an IQ over 50 would want to be involved in. You didn't get out much in pubbies, did you, in D II?

Clueless, sir, clueless beyond repair.

[i]They also allowed a PK to assess his odds of a successful scroll hack, or other sneak attack.

If it were D1, he wouldn't need to assess his odds. He would just instantly kill you. And res you quickly so you could die again and he can get your stuff.

And your point is what? I never said the games were identically afflicted by arseholes, I pointed out that scanners were a bane to D2 as they were to D1. What more do you want?

Like I said above, you didn't get out much in HC D 2 Realms, did you?[/i]

[i]Scanners aren't necessary, but they are an option. Why one chooses that option reflects what one, the person, brings to the multiplayer game environment. One's attitude, one's view of "the online game world."

This is essentially true.

Yay, we agree! Guinness on me! [/i]

[i]Scanners are a substitute for human interaction; for a conversation; for getting to know people; for dealing with the variability in trust and trustworthiness that is the human part of the on line gaming environment.

But this is perhaps only one side of a coin. How much time are you going to put into getting to know a public gamer?

[/i]
Sadly, more than I should have. I met some nice people in pubbies, but not many.

Surely not enough time to actually trust him in the "I'd accept an obs/zod from him at his word" sense, or he will have already left to find someone who just wants to play the darn game. The scanner user could actually come across as more courteous and less nosey than the person who tries to pry the info out through interrogation. Some people are just willing to take the risk of playing and finding out who is trustworthy the hard way, but other's don't like getting PK'd/MK'd/kicked/items stolen/etc. It's always been a compromise one must consider, and as the number of players on b.net dwindles the situation does not get any easier.

Sound and fury, signifying nothing. Except for your last sentence, with which I agree.

We used to get charges of "elitism" at the DSF, Lurker Lounge, and occasionally here, all the time.
Good.

Perhaps it is selective memory, but I don't remember DSF, the Asylum, or RBD, ever being referred to as "elitists". As the term is applied to the Lurker Lounge, it is most definitely Not a Good Thing. Do you realize people actually got flamed on the LurkerLounge for asking D2 strategy questions, because their questions were too easy?

Your definition of flame is accompanied by a very thin skin. Plenty of one time drips who dropped by and were not ready for intelligent conversation. One such induced Sirian to accuse a number of the RB crowd with being Howlers. That of course resulted in a fine flame war internal to RB.

There were enough variations in reply on the Lounge in the Hey Day, 2000-2002, where I do recall plenty of assholiness to go around on many sides.

Apparently, one was expected to look at every strategy guide on the internet before asking any questions. Although, you know if it was someone with a familiar name doing the asking, it wouldn't have been a problem. To me, it was sickening. And the really sad part is that the people like Jarulf who actually contributed to those strategy guides would be willing to answer these questions a dozen times without a complaint... The elitists of the Lounge and the elite of the Lounge have always been two very different groups.

How about a few names? That wasn't my MO. It was chaos, at times, and thanks to the Lounge's popularity, it attracted plenty of dross. May I once again refer to Sturgeon's Law.

I guess the point here is that the way of the Asylum (and presumably RBD by inheritance) was to be elite without being elitist.

Selective memory, sir, though I appreciate the nuance.

A genial atmosphere for sure, thanks to the leadership of the founders. And, also thanks to low traffic volume.

The BNMs were not a guild, the BNM rules were open for anyone to play by, the forum, even game names and passwords, all very much within the public domain. The belief was that variants are so masochistic that anyone who would willingly participate could be welcomed with open arms. Unfortunately, it doesn't keep the spambots out. But otherwise, it pretty much worked out great.

Did I make any claims about the Asylum? NO. Stay on topic, eh?

[i]Why would I want to hang out with anyone who wasn't unique, eccentric, and singular? There are drones everywhere in life, the spice is in the unusual, the novel, the clever.
Sturgeon's Law can also apply to people, and groups of people. Don't be a 90 percenter. That is what going Beyond is about, in part.

It's a great philosophy. But if 100 people are playing Diablo on USEast, and 80 of them are probably not even legit by the most lenient of standards, and you want to pick and choose only the cream of the crop (10% who play variants, roleplay, etc.) as playing partners, you are down to about 2 acceptable players on all of USEast at any given time.

[/i]
Yes. Next item? That squares with my actual experience.

Since you are one of the two, if the other one gets turned off by your scanner rant, you are down to playing solo...

That one worthy isn't using a scanner, or he'd be one of the 80+ scum, so I am back to me and one person well met and worth playing with having a whale of a time.

Your usually superb reasoning died and went to hell on this one. What is the deal here: are you a closet scanner monkey?

Occhi

[Hureg]

I still find it laughable that you can have the gall to tell ANYONE that they may not be legit based upon a flawed system of comparison. I've personally witnessed the game dupe items without my input, by dropping two uniques (I don't think I've seen magicals, but I have seen potions, and gold) that happened to spawn at the exact same moment (I think it was a Chain Lightning blast; I honestly don't recall the item, but it wasn't anything worth getting excited over). If I had somehow managed to get ahold of both of those items, without the game automatically deleting them (as it did), am _I_ suddenly not legit, because the _game_ duped an item out of pure chance? Certainly not, even by a Purists standards (which I have been for far longer in Diablo than not).

I've seen that as well, quite a few times actually. To my knowledge, the item only actually drops once, just in different locations for each player so there appears to be two items momentarily until the desync goes away (I've never seen it solo so my assumption of desync is based upon that, if its not desync, it's still some in-game bug where the one item appears as two and then one image of it always automatically disappears. If you were fast enough to click on both of those uniques you would have realised that one of them wasn't actually physically there). Having said that, you are still right, it's possible for a duplicate of even a very good item to be found in the game. But like I said before, this is no program for idiots, if you can't manage a conversation with someone about whether there is any cause for concern over a 'suspicious' item then don't use it.

Yes, invasion of privacy I know but it comes with the territory. If you want to play a game notorious for being over run by cheaters and cheated items, then you have to accept that some people just aren't going to trust you without your items becoming public knowledge. If you want to get offended by that, then that's your choice.

Yes scanners have caused a lot of damage to the legit community over the years but so have players smart enough to be able to pass themselves off as legit.

The rest of what you have said is pretty much covered by the fact that I already stated I don't encourage you to use this program without a brain.

If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, consider why (beyond that narrow assessment I just typed) scanners are seen by others differently than you see them, even those not actually "high and mighty."

We used to get charges of "elitism" at the DSF, Lurker Lounge, and occasionally here, all the time.

You can like or dislike scanners all you want. That's fine, it's your opinion, have fun with it, share it and embrace it. I have no problem with that. If through that opinion you stumble upon the words "they are cheats" (in a non pking or duel perspective) then you are starting to fight an argument with no real grounding and in my opinion are being high and mighty.

I have been charged with "elitism" as well. There's a huge difference with not bothering to play with people because you feel they have nothing to offer you skill or other wise and being some High and Mighty, I'm legit therefore I am, figure that goes about condemning something because of its obvious drawbacks, all the while refusing to allow for the possibility of it being used with common sense.

I throw your assessment back at you: if the shoe doesn't fit, then you should consider why I, and Nystul for that matter, bother defending scanner use.

That one worthy isn't using a scanner, or he'd be one of the 80+ scum, so I am back to me and one person well met and worth playing with having a whale of a time.

Your usually superb reasoning died and went to hell on this one. What is the deal here: are you a closet scanner monkey?

Occhi

I hate to speak for Nystul, as I really don't know him very well but perhaps you should consider that he's standing up for me and the possibility that there are more like me. Something that you really should consider as my interpersonal skills aren't so shabby and I wouldn't be here in the first place if I had no interest in going beyond.



Sorry Griselda, I know it's an old issue but its one that the RBD should be prepared to face if they intend to come back to Diablo and expand their player base. The use of diablo guard is common practice amongst the non-cheating community nowadays, especially on europe, though it probably goes largely unnoticed as it very rarely actually becomes an in-game issue.

[Nystul]

What more do you need for a comparison? OK, so Town Kill never got made for Realms. BFD!

Your experiences with scanners in D1 would be relevant, if you care to share them. Bringing up your experiences in D2 is akin to saying that football players shouldn't wear helmets, because you never needed one when playing soccer.

Your definition of flame is accompanied by a very thin skin.

Yes, it is! I am not easily offended, mind you. But I don't think it is any news to you that I am almost always polite and civil, even in cases of strong disagreements, and prefer that other people are as well. So yes, any time someone attacks another poster in a rude way, I consider that a flame. Nevertheless, it doesn't bother me a bit when someone like Pete lays the wood on someone who deserves it. However, Pete replied to "How do I kill the Butcher?" with courteous advice for years and years without ever degrading the person asking the question, and somehow this role of gracious host was lost to many of the second generation Lurkers.

There were enough variations in reply on the Lounge in the Hey Day, 2000-2002, where I do recall plenty of assholiness to go around on many sides.

I would agree.

How about a few names?

As I say, they were second generation Lurkers (those who discovered the Lounge just as it was about to go boom, and made it their own), and hardly any name from that group of people is signficant to me at all. So then, it is unfair for me to single out Spiderdrake. The only reason I remember him in particular is that he was willing to take the issue to email, enabling us to agree to disagree without creating bigger problems in the process. It seems like Ghostiger was involved as well, but this is water under a very old bridge. It's just a case in point. I'm Midwestern, public schooled, and don't believe there is any good connotation to the word "elitist" (unless it is a reference to Da O'Toth's variant).

That one worthy isn't using a scanner, or he'd be one of the 80+ scum, so I am back to me and one person well met and worth playing with having a whale of a time.

Your usually superb reasoning died and went to hell on this one. What is the deal here: are you a closet scanner monkey?

Nah, I'm not a closet scanner monkey. I have been very upfront about anything I do which falls into the dreaded "grey area". But I have to wonder, don't you consider trainers a greater part of the problems with D1 b.net than scanners? I know I do. And yet, I have used a trainer on b.net. Griselda does. Cyrene got me started on the whole deal. I'm pretty sure Roland has used dhack too. And we would all say that we are perfectly justified in doing so... it's not the tool used but what you do with it that matters. Then, it should be no surprise that many others feel that way about scanners.

But mostly, I don't really care much about the scanner issue one way or the other. I didn't care much when Armin made the editorial, and I care less now. I'm just miffed that this thread got derailed. Griselda asked about Diablo LE, and got a reply from Hureg explaining how the channel came to exist. How does that turn into a debate? It's not even a debate over whether we should use the channel or not, which would actually be relevant to this thread. It's not even a debate over anything that anyone in this thread appears to do. It's a debate over whether some virtually dead guild was justified in updating a scanner which had already been widely used on b.net for years and years. It is completely academic, and it's pointless within the scope of getting together a group of RBers for some fun games of Diablo, which is what this thread was supposed to be about.

[Occhidiangela]

I'm just miffed that this thread got derailed. Griselda asked about Diablo LE, and got a reply from Hureg explaining how the channel came to exist. How does that turn into a debate? It's not even a debate over whether we should use the channel or not, which would actually be relevant to this thread. It's not even a debate over anything that anyone in this thread appears to do. It's a debate over whether some virtually dead guild was justified in updating a scanner which had already been widely used on b.net for years and years. It is completely academic, and it's pointless within the scope of getting together a group of RBers for some fun games of Diablo, which is what this thread was supposed to be about.

Good point. Back to the regularly scheduled attempt to get D1 Iron Man back in gear.

My experience with scanners in D1 began with a number of people meeting me and (as I thought) out of the blue informing me "you are not legit." This was when I first started playing MP, hadn't found the DSF, hadn't [email="3@30'd"]3@30'd[/email], and didn't realize that people in MP cheated as a rule, not as an exception. As I found more out, I began to understand the dynamics involved, in validation of my general point of view in life: expect people to disappoint you. It allows for some wonderful moments when they don't, and less stress when they do.

Occhi