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Short update :
- met v8mark - east from my nation. No real progress on diplomacy with him ... probably because he felt somehow stressed by my wandering-warrior near his second city. 
- met Peter. A lot of messages was exchanged with him - as a result we exchanged our ( almost ) complete maps and seems that a NAP for 20 turns will be signed too. That's really good ...
- BW was researched and ... surprise surprise ! - I have copper quite close to my capital ! It is in BFC of blue-spot so settling that city became next priority ( after wining The Oracle race ... let's pray for it ...  ).
BTW - it was a really fast turn !!
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Good news - I finished The Oracle ! 
Pick Monarchy as the free technology - and revolted to both Slavery and Monarchy this turn ... seems that there will be good opportunities for Ioan I The Builder to crack the whip ...
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As long as I have now some free time I'll perform an update of my diplo-emails.
First one was received from Peter :
Quote:Hi Ioan,
just wanted to congratulate on the Oracle. Around 2000BC it is quite fast I think (although it may have been needed - no idea how far TT was on it).
Greetings from Ankh-Morpork
Piet
He seems to be a nice guy, we have not too much to share for moment and ... also I tried to clarify something/induce an ideea in my reply message :
Quote:Hi Peter !
Since I didn't get the save yet ... thanks for confirmation !
It was quite fast, but probably Quick Speed helped too.
Do you plan to build any wonder in the next turns ? Because, from my point of view you'll have no competitor - I clearly need to expand in the next ~20 turns ...
Best regards,
Ioan
... which seems to had some effect !
Quote:Hi Ioan,
Currently also expanding - so no race for a wonder atm. Have been playing with the thought of building GLH though - my capital is set up for whipping out settlers now, and a lighthouse (which will be good on its own) will be built while regrowing anyway.
Since you are the only other player with a coastal capital (and industrious on top of this), its good to hear that you won't be pursuing GLH, so I might decide to go for it. Will also have to communicate TT about it though.
Also thought about hanging gardens since I will probably get Math early, but this will depend a lot on expansion - and if I go for GLH I will skip HG for sure.
Best regards,
Piet
That's interesting ...  ... if he will work on GLH this will mean he will reduce somehow his expansion for a while - even if he will get a nice return later.
Maybe I'm too unexperienced with MP-games but ... I don't belive that GLH is such a good wonder when olny/other human players are on the map !  Actually ... considering that almost all other human-players will avoid to sign ( or demand high price for sign ) open-borders treaties with the owner and will regard him/her as the first-potential threat ... could even have a net negative effect ! 
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Didn't receive the last save yet - but I had an interesting diplo-email exchange with TT which I'll reproduce below ( be aware - this is a looong post ! ) :
Quote:Hey Ioan,
I would be prepared to sign a NAP but I would be looking for something a little longer, probably another 10-15 turns onto that ideally. Also, I would prefer it came with some kind of settling agreement plus documented agreements on what aggression is. After seeing what has happened in other RB games, I think it would be best that we both know exactly what we can and can't do to avoid any 'messiness'! Its nothing personal, I've just been burnt before so I want to know exactly what I'm signing every time I sign a NAP with anyone!
The basic things that would need to be agreed to is - Defining acceptable & aggressive settling, EP spending, third party gifting/assistance, screenshot trading restrictions. We can tie a wonder agreement in there too if you like - make it as comprehensive as possible lol!
I hope that makes sense - just want to have all my agreements properly constructed so I can always know what's going on!
In terms of JKaen, his scout appeared out of nowhere really. His diplo has been hard to engage with so far so I have no screenshot trade to know for sure where he is. If I were to make an educated guess, I would imagine he is roughly due S or SE of my capital!
Btw, shouldn't it be King Ioan I now
TT
He he ... Jkaen is even further south !??? This is/could be a great news - no threat from a nasty Impi-horde ! 
I replyed to this and soon after received the following draft-proposal from him :
Quote:Hey Ioan,
Taking on your suggestions, here is a '1st Draft' of our NAP:
The NAP between our nations shall be in force until the end of Turn 75.
For the purpose of transparency, 'aggression' is defined as:
- Settling within 3 tiles from the others borders unless agreed by the other party.
- Any gifting or trading of military units/gold to a nation which shares borders with the other party unless the other party gives their consent before the gifting/trade has been made
- Either party trading screenshots of the other party's land to a third party.
Transgression of any of the above definitions by one party gives the other party the option of immediately voiding the NAP.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other conditions of the NAP are as follows:
- Both parties agree to cease EP spending on each other once mutual graphs have been obtained. Any change to this condition must be mutually agreed. If one party fails to fulfil this, they must first receive a warning from the other party. Should they continue to transgress or do so a second time, the other party has the right to void the NAP.
- Both parties shall Open Borders at the first instance for trade route benefit. Only units with the inability to attack (i.e Scouts/Explorers or Workboats) bay enter the other party's borders. Any other units which enter the other's borders without the prior consent of the other party will be deemed as an aggressive move. In this instance, the first turn of transgression shall result in a warning, a second transgression will result in the voiding of the NAP along with the offending unit banned from entering the borders of the other party for a period of 10 turns after voiding of the NAP.
Signed,
TT of Mali .....................
Sorry its a bit wordy but just kept thinking of possible 'loopholes' so wanted to close as many as possible - still trying to work out a 'perfect NAP' to soothe my paranoia about signing them lol! I added in Open Borders as I have Writing now so we can build up some trade routes!
Feel free to amend anything you feel isn't right.
TT
There are some ... potential tricky aspects and for this purpose I made several observations :
Quote:Hi TT,
King Ioan sent this draft-proposal to his advisors and their opinion was that it looks OK but some things need to be reformulated :
- A settling-line should be more clearly specified in order to not end-up in situation when a bold-settling will took place ( and will be hard to counter - due to 3-tiles limits ).
- Open Borders could be very unilateral if one of us built GLH. My comercial advisor suggest to add a specific clause which to allow closing-borders ( or renegotiation ) if one of us built it.
- Chief of Secret Police agreed with EP-clause and she also want to inform you that we have for the moment demo-graph visibility on your nation.
- An auxiliary "cool-down" period of 5 turns after T75 sounds better for me ( in which to be possible to end Open Borders agreement etc ).
Best regards,
King Ioan I The Builder
P.S. : A little bit of paranoia is really healthy ... we understand this ...
And it seems that we reach an agreement in the following terms :
Quote:Hey Ioan,
Its fine having graphs now, just turn EPs on another and all will be fine. Cool-down period is fine too as is the Great Lighthouse clause.
In terms of the settling agreement, I agree that we need a proper line, I was mainly suggesting the 3 tile rule as a rule of thumb until we could work out a proper line. Shall we compose screenshots of the land over the next turn and then begin working on a proper line, as I doubt either of us will settle in the 'contested' area for a few turns yet!
Here's a revised draft!
The NAP between our nations shall be in force until the end of Turn 75. There shall then be a 'cool-down' period of 5 turns where all conditions can be re-negotiated.
For the purpose of transparency, 'aggression' is defined as:
- Settling within 3 tiles from the others borders unless agreed by the other party - this is free to be mutually renegotiated as further information is found and an official settling line is drawn.
- Any gifting or trading of military units/gold to a nation which shares borders with the other party unless the other party gives their consent before the gifting/trade has been made
- Either party trading screenshots of the other party's land to a third party.
Transgression of any of the above definitions by one party gives the other party the option of immediately voiding the NAP.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other conditions of the NAP are as follows:
- Both parties agree to cease EP spending on each other once mutual graphs have been obtained. Any change to this condition must be mutually agreed. If one party fails to fulfil this, they must first receive a warning from the other party. Should they continue to transgress or do so a second time, the other party has the right to void the NAP.
- Both parties shall Open Borders at the first instance for trade route benefit. Only units with the inability to attack (i.e Scouts/Explorers or Workboats) bay enter the other party's borders. Any other units which enter the other's borders without the prior consent of the other party will be deemed as an aggressive move. In this instance, the first turn of transgression shall result in a warning, a second transgression will result in the voiding of the NAP along with the offending unit banned from entering the borders of the other party for a period of 10 turns after voiding of the NAP.
- Should either party construct the Great Lighthouse world wonder, the Open Borders agreement can be renegotiated or cancelled by the other party from that point onwards.
Signed,
TT of Mali .....................
Considering the existing agreement with Peter which is likely to be extended ... the strategy for the following 40-50 turns seems to became clear ... 
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Diplo-emails conclusion : the NAP was signed and subsequently ( in the save which I already sent to JKaen ) an Open Borders agreement is in effect.
It's quite interesting to realize that TT already researched Writing ...
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Overview screenshot of your empire?
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Ilios Wrote:Overview screenshot of your empire?
I'll post something when the save will reach me again ( probably this evening ).
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I'll upload pictures in followings days - for the moment I want just to reproduce a ( somehow ) amusing message received this morning :
Quote:Hi Ioan,
just finished T39 - finally a quick turn.
Was your 11-point-increase really 1 new city and your two other cities growing to 2 and 3 ? I guessed something like this from the Demo screen. If I am right, congratz for a great turn.
Remembered our NAP running out T50, i.e. soon. I would like to extend it a little bit - say, T75 (1AD) ?
Best regards,
Piet
Well ... actually the increase in points was just due to cities growing with 1 pop each and probably due to a cultural-expansion ... I didn't settle yet the third city ( and actually I'm still ~5 turns away from doing this due the fact that I spotted a warrior from v8mark near my unguarded second city and switched to a warrior for safety reasons  ).
But ... it's maybe better to perform some "half-dezinformation" regarding this aspect ... no ?
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With a biiig delay - here is an overview of my small nation ( right after whipping the granaries ). The interesting point is if I will be able to secure the gold, marbe + pig spot for a possible fourth city ).
Any observation will be appreciated.
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OK - a short review :
- I have 3 cities founded which provide me both copper & horses ( both resources was connected ). Granaries whipped in 2 of them - but the third one have limited food acces ( until I will build a fishingboat ) so will be spared from whipping in the next 10-12 turns. Anyway - the next whipping-round will took place when Writing will be completed - for the libraries. This is strange but ... progress of science require sometimes sacrifices, no ?
- 4 workers are active on the field and one more is in the queue - not so bad but not very good also. Especially considering that I need to cottage ~6-7 more tiles ...
- TT presure me a little bit on my copper-city ( more important - the ivory-resource is in HIS land !  ) but this is not ( yet ! ) a disaster as long as I'm Creative and Hinduism just spread on that city. With a Library I'll have +5 culture/turn which could counter somehow his Stonhenge-pressure.
- After Writing I'll research Archery ... not an optimal research maybe but ... I need some enhanced-city protection because I'm planing to play a little bit more aggresive strategy toward my Eastern-borders ...
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