[SPOILERS]PBEM14 - Serdoa (Fin/Agg Mongols)

[Serdoa]

[SIZE="3"]scooter[/SIZE]

I won't post the whole conversation we had before this war started. Let it be enough that we had 21 messages going back and forth between the 2nd to the 12th of April. And that we have shared our map data. I feel that was not enough though. Probably should have stayed in contact but there was nothing to talk about in my opinion when you are 20 tiles apart from each other - at least nothing pressing.

[novice]

I did not really read it as I had no time for that. Probably should have before I answered...

Oooh, he hates it when you do that...

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....count=1512

[Serdoa]

Oh, well, maybe THATs the reason he is throwing our game thanks for reminding me on this gem novice

As for the war diplomacy I'll just make a summary and if I think something is remarkable, I'll post parts of the emails.

I started the war-diplomacy with asking Gaspar, scooter and Sandover about giving me a NAP for like 20 turns. Just to find out who would refuse to do it because I believed already at that time that Lewwyns extremely confident answer could only mean that he has someone else helping him. Unfortunately only Gaspar told me that he would guarantee that none of his forces would enter this war. A little bit later I asked him for not giving a NAP to Lewwyn which he also agreed too. All around great to work with him

Sandover flat out refused a NAP - but in a way that made me pissed first and then I thought about it and realized that somethings wrong, so I asked whats going on and told him that I would of course pay for the NAP if necessary. We finally started a discussion and right now Sandover is pretty much a friend for me. He received a screenshot of scooters complete lands from me and in return I have a NAP. He also might be able to interfere with Lewwyns next city - if I pay for that - and gave some advice on the war. I think that he would rather not see Lewwyn win this war, what is understandable, now that we can be nearly certain that scooter is Lewwyns ally. He would probably be the next target of those two if Lewwyn can absorb me. I probably have to make sure that he really realized that, as it should make it more interesting for him to help me without me having to pay ridiculous (yeah, Sandover also teached me how to write that word) amounts for it.

scooter himself refused a NAP first, stating that he would reconsider if I would get one by Gaspar and Sandover. I didn't bother to tell him that I have now one from both. Reason is that he also told me that he does not think it is worth his while to tip the scales in this war in my favor and that he does not want Lewwyn as enemy. That wording was suspicious enough that I am - even that he still hasn't declared war - am sure that he will declare on me next turn.

So, what does that mean and what are my long term plans?

I have pretty much no chance at winning this game. My chances were bad already because the site I claimed as cap is surely great, but I moved in my "backlines". Also I needed some time till I could work the gold there. I probably should have settled in place, get my stuff online and go for a fast settler for the gold site. That would have been much stronger I feel. Also the site I choose for a second city was bad. I simply got distracted by Lewwyns warrior and played sloppy, searching "some site" to settle. I choose that one because it was on a hill and I wanted to have as many grassland rivers nearby as possible for a commerce site. I feel thats a good idea, only not for the second city. I should have settled the copper city (I settled on copper now because it was a necessity, but I think from the layout of the land thats probably the best spot to get for that city anyway) and then maybe this city. And even then I could probably come up with a better dotmap which does not need a border pop right away to add any resources.

Now that I am in a war, I won't be able to rectify those shortcomings. I had to whip forces instead of workers and settlers. Before I can get back to expansion, others will have 5-6+ cities already. Improved. No way I can get back in the game I feel. So, my new target is simply to survive now, make Lewwyns life miserable and if I can find the chance also hurt scooter in the process.

[Serdoa]

T45, started with this



Lewwyns moves his axes to the NE - probably he is heading for my cap. Not that I know what he hopes to find there. scooter should have given him a map of my lands, so Lewwyn should know that my cap is really strong. He cannot hope to take it with 2 axes, even if it were completely undefended right now - well, it is, but he can't know that and shouldn't assume it.

His warrior moved 1W onto the hill. Not sure what that is good for. 1NW would have been better from the limited information he had in my opinion. But I am grateful for that, because it gave me the opportunity to get rid of it. As you see, I have two archers nearby, one damaged but with a promotion on hand. So I promoted him and attacked at 55% odds. Risky. If I lose the archer I can still attack with the one from Beshbalik (Besh produces another one at the end of the turn so would be save anyway) so I can be - except for extreme unlucky rolls - sure that I will kill that warrior. But if I lose the first archer, the second may be damaged and then scooter will snipe him away with his chariot. Oh, right, I have a third archer nearby which would then kill the chariot - nevermind then, I'll take the risky route. Thanks for moving those axes the way you did Lewwyn, had the gone on the pigs, I would have had to play it differently.



Win! I had hoped for it, but I had not put all my bets on it. Still for Lewwyn that has to be a blow. First losing the axe to 3 warriors and an archer (the same risk<->reward strategy was applied there btw, because 3 warriors are worthless now, so I'd rather lose them trying then having them sit around doing nothing), now losing the warrior in such a close fight.

South: I then moved the archer from Besh onto the 0.1 archer (with 8XP now - if I can heal him enough with the promotion and can damage the chariot with another unit, I might get a HE-unit out of this). Besh itself produced not the granary as shown but an archer as explained before.

North: I chopped the forest 1SE of copper city with the 3 workers and moved my archer coming from the cap onto them. Chop itself went into a ... workboat. I don't feel I need the spear right away as scooter already wants to back out of this war. I don't need the archer either as scooter can't attack with his chariot this turn and next turn I'll have an archer in there - or killed scooters chariot.

East: Cap whipped the worker. Overflow into an axe right now, but maybe I'll change that to a barracks and produce two axes with a whip and a chop. Should be possible to do before Lewwyn actually can attack and 2 shock axes should be good enough against his 2 axes. If he goes on moving to the cap, I'll send an archer or two back there as well, just to be sure.

Situation at the end of the turn:



And now I am pondering if I again try to get peace with Lewwyn and expand like crazy or if I really pour all resources into killing him. We'll see.

[Serdoa]

T46, not much happened. I have no picture from the start of the turn, but scooter moved his chariot 1S of the wheat and joined it with another chariot. Lewwyn has moved one axe 1N, the other stays in place. Not sure what the idea is behind that to be honest. He also got another axe into Mt. Nebo. If he had not got that one and moved both axes NE towards my cap, I had send one or two archers via the road onto the pigs and tried to raze his city there. It was only defended by a warrior. Oh well, not all can go my way I suppose.

End of Turn:

Bigger then normal, sorry for that but I had not time to change it in the morning and I am not at home right now. Let me know if you prefer it this way or if the smaller ones are better.

South: 2 Archers are in Beshbalik, one with 1.4 health, being C1,S1. I suppose scooter could attack with both chariots into the city, but attacking across the river (-25% for him) into a hill city (25% for hill, 25% for archer on hill, 50% for archer in city) with 20% culture - um, no, thats not gonna work at all. Thats 3 vs 6.6 str.
I also moved one archer 1NE of the city. He can either join the archer at the cap (if necessary) or go back into the city. Either way, I think i am safe here for now.

North: I produced a workboat to get the clams netted and moved the archer back towards the cap. That could be risky except for that I will finish an archer there if needed next turn and that I can upgrade the warrior to a spear or axe next turn as well. So, save for now.

East: I grew back to size 3 in the cap and have produced a barracks there. Next turn I can get an C1,S1 axe if necessary. Won't be though, so I can slow-build it, grow to size 4 and whip a settler then. Or do something completely different, haven't decided.

Now, why I am so indecisive about what to do next? Because I have had some exchange with scooter since the start of the war. I'll put it in spoiler-tags and try to make a summary at the end.

[COLOR="Sienna"]Hi guys,

I have declared war on Lewwyn as he tried to box me in and probably wanted to go to war with me anyway. He seems confident that he can win this war - too confident given that I have Archers and will have Axes and Spears in 2 turns. So I wonder, someone of you who would like to declare war on me as well? If not I would like to ask all of you for a NAP till T65. Thats not so long as that it should in any way harm you (especially when I have to defend instead of expand) but it would give me the feeling that actually it does make sense to put any more effort in this game.

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Silver"]Serdoa,

Ouch. Good luck with that... I have no doubt that you will give him all kinds of trouble. He seems to be running a bit of a farmer's gambit, so I imagine he'll have a hard time with you.

I have a policy of no NAPs in this game, so I'm going to keep that. I think you know me well enough to know that I strongly dislike them, so I'm going further in this game and just choosing not to sign them, especially since this is a group of players that I think will all prove hesitant to sign NAPs. If both Gaspar and Sandover eagerly sign a NAP with you, then I'll reconsider, but I'd be happy to see no NAPs in this game. However if there's anything else I can do for you, please let me know.

Good luck!
scooter[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Sienna"]scooter,

well, he certainly can't take any cities from me without help from others. He did get Axes now, but those won't help him when he attacks archers in a hill-city with walls. So he will need catapults. And well, I think I will reach them first, given my GNP But it will slow us both down enough that we both can't win.

Anyway, there is something else you can do for me. As I believe you are after Lewwyn the one nearest to me, you might have units near my borders. If so, would you be willing to gift them to me? I would of course pay for them, say 2-3 gold for 1 hammer?

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Silver"]Serdoa,

Well that's good to hear. Pretty much everyone is running some sort of farmer's gambit right now (you and Lewwyn are pretty easily tops in soldier counts I believe), so I doubt you'll have trouble with interference. In general I think everyone is happy to see you two not getting along and would rather not tip the scales.

I can't gift you units without writing (and honestly I'm skeptical on gifting units for a few other reasons too). Do you have it? I definitely don't...

scooter[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Sienna"]scooter,

I have pretty good research power. I played poorly on some fronts, but that is something I am good at. I do have Writing and given your message I assume you do indeed have a unit nearby, so may I ask which other reasons besides not having Writing you have to be skeptical on gifting units? I understand that you do not want to tip the scales but if you are not walking a stack of units up to my borders already (I hope you do not!) then I doubt that one scouting unit will make much difference. Just would make my life easier for the first few turns till I have whipped the walls. And don't think I forgot PBEM7. You have helped me out on several occasions and I am willing to do the same in this game. I told you at the start that I would like to work with you and especially now where I can't win it anyway I do not see a reason not to help you if you help me. Having a friend who shares half the gold of a GM is a great boon to have for sure - trust me, I know what I speak about.

Anyway, as an update on the war: I do have Archers now (produced the first one already) and I get Axes and Spears soon. I had Maths nearly finished already when Lewwyn decided to throw away both our games, so if I can hold out for another 3 turns Lewwyn will get a beating. I think I need something like 15 more turns and I'll even have catapults. I still don't understand what he thinks to achieve with that. If he at least had brought enough forces - like we did in PBEM7 with Dazed - but as far as I can see it, he simply hoped to catch me off-guard and that didn't work out obviously. He even had to upgrade warriors to Axes so as to not lose a city. I mean, honestly? I'm a little pissed about that whole situation, because Lewwyn still seems to hold a grudge about something - I don't even have a clue about what - and therefore throws away a game which can easily go on for a year or longer just to spite me. I wouldn't mind if he had done it to get in a better position, but after carefully reading his PBEM6 thread I don't think he did it for that reason - if he did then he certainly underestimated me.

Well, whatever. Please let me know if you do have a unit nearby and also if so if there is anything I can do to make you less skeptical on helping me defending against an completely unjustified aggression by my neighbour.

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Silver"]Serdoa,

I don't have lots of military in your area no, though I am trying to defog some land between us. Remember, I'm quite a bit behind you in power so almost all of my military is just warriors this point, though I do have strat resources hooked up now. The biggest reason I'm skeptical is Sandover. He's been fairly aggressive, and I honestly am afraid that if I send you what little military I have then he'll walk in on me with War Chariots. I'm far closer to him than I am you, so I'm trying to be cautious and make sure he doesn't get sneaky - especially because I AM running a bit of a farmer's gambit.

And the other half is the obvious - I don't see this as a scenario where tipping the scales in your favor is exceptionally worthwhile to me. On top of that, Sandover and Lewwyn would make natural geographic allies (with each other), so I don't want *both* of them to be hostile towards me, as that would just get messy (especially since Gaspar doesn't seem too fond of me either for reasons I can't figure out).

As for who of you is the aggressor... You both seem to think you were the victim and the other is the aggressor, so as they say, "the victor writes the history books"... So I wish you a genuine good luck, but I just don't really want to make the Ottomans my enemy this early on in a war that doesn't particularly concern me, or else it could likely turn into you and I vs the world (again), which is not really something I'm comfortable with betting on in this game. I just want to expand in peace and then smash some heads with Cataphracts.

Good luck!
scooter[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Sienna"]scooter,

I have noticed your Chariot next to my borders and I somehow doubt you are only admiring the view so I guess you probably will try to tip the scales hm? Unfortunately you told me already in your last email that you don't see it as worthwhile to tip them in my favor and also that you do not want Lewwyn as enemy. Yeah, I can read between the lines - thanks for the heads up that you are coming, I might not have been able to prepare otherwise.

Anyway, I am not sure what you were told by Lewwyn but I get the feeling you have a wrong idea about the situation and how easy it is to rush me. So let me give you an update:

- Lewwyn lost his axe he had in my lands this turn and will lose his warrior as well next turn.
- When you can attack Beshbalik with your Chariot it will be defended by 3 archers. When Lewwyns 2 axes join it will be 4 archers. In a hill city. Remember how many axes we calculated are necessary to take a hill city defended by archers in PBEM7?
- My copper city is up and running and defended.

Basically that whole rush failed horribly. You can still back out, agree to a NAP till T100 (troop gifting to Lewwyn prohibited of course) and try to win this game. The same goes for Lewwyn btw if he gifts me Mt. Nebo in exchange for a settler, agrees to a NAP as well as to a land split - he knows what I want and I think it is pretty fair.

I am fine if you discuss this with Lewwyn first as I expect that you do not want to betray him. But he should realize that getting you involved in that war will only hurt you in the long term. I've never did something like that in PBEM7 because I tried to be a friend and do the best for the two of us. I wonder if you talk with him about that failed rush will you be able to say the same about Lewwyn?

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Silver"]Serdoa,

It's nothing personal, it's simple deal making. Lewwyn bought my help before you did, and that's it really. You came to me saying you were declaring on him, and wanted a NAP and troops support... I honestly would have considered it, but I had already promised help to Lewwyn, as he asked first. Honestly, I don't really care who wins or what rush is successful or what-not, I'm just following through on a deal... It really won't hurt me in the long-term, I'm pretty confident that I'll be just fine. In fact, once you kill my chariot, I'm happy to make peace, as I wish you no ill will... but the simple fact is that Lewwyn bought my help, so I'm going to keep my end of the bargain, but my end of the bargain does not at all involve long-term war.

Again, it's nothing personal whatsoever, and is in no way related to other games or anything like that... He came to me while you were quiet for something like 3 1/2 weeks, so I accepted. This rush is Lewwyn's baby, I'm merely the help that he negotiated for, but like I said, I'm happy to consider peace once my chariot is dead, as I have no plans to continue making military to send your way.

scooter[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Sienna"]scooter,

does making peace include agreeing to a NAP? Because you see, it won't help me if we make peace and you attack me 3 turns later again.

Other then that, I think it is a shame that your chariot has to die for that. I would have loved to use it for something worthwhile instead. Well, I guess I can't sway you about that one. Still, if you have more - and don't owe them to Lewwyn already - you might want to think about it? I mean, speaking in all honesty I don't see how this helps you right now. Sure you can expand into territory we normally would have shared between us. But if Lewwyn can't kill me - and lets be clear here, that does not happen and I think you know that already - being involved in an long drawn-out war with me, always having to be on your toes about potential sneak attacks thats not really worth it, is it? If you instead send chariots to aid me, I will make a deal with you about that land. You can take it right now as well I know. But then you don't have to be on your toes, you will be in my eyes rightful owner to it (and I will expand into Lewwyns former lands...).

Look at that deal from all angles scooter. Think about what you feel has to be added. But consider it at least. Because Lewwyn still wants to win - I am happy with throwing my chances and crushing him. So, you probably can get more out of me then of him. Oh and added to that, he has shown already that he can't win a war against me even with superior forces and an ally aiding him. Maybe your bets are on the wrong horse?

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Silver"]Serdoa,

I'm open to considering a NAP. I'd have to think about if it'd be worthwhile to accept it, but I certainly don't have you marked as a longterm enemy. I've backed up my chariot (though I've reinforced it with another), so I haven't actually done any damage to you yet.

I'll throw this back to you. When you say you would want a NAP, what are you offering exactly? Terms and length? As far as I can tell, I've mostly fulfilled my obligations to Lewwyn (It seems you are pretty safe near Turfan with the amount of units you have), so unless he can make it worth my while to stay in the war, I may back right out. Like I said, I'm not necessarily tied to him long-term, I'm simply a mercenary in this war, but otherwise the war is between you two. Obviously I covet some of the land to your west, and like you said, it'd be nice to not come to blows over that region.... Though I have no doubt that I'd be able to defend it if need be.

scooter[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Sienna"]scooter,

well, I guess you know that actually you would have been the one done damage to if you had not retreated that chariot As I said, my defenses are solid even that it took a slight bit longer then expected. But hey, I have to expand and improve as well - can't stop that only due to a war.

As for the NAP:

- T80 - or longer if you want
- Lands will be split so that you will have rights to all lands except for those up to 5W of Beshbalik (city not borders), meaning you get the marble and I get those corn and the two floodplains as well as my horses. I won't contest those lands with you. You are right that you probably can take it anyways - and even defend. But having to defend them, having to invest in armies, having to rebuild pillaged improvements is costly.

NAP does include not to help Lewwyn in any way, neither with units, map information, gold etc.

I would also like to propose that I will buy your two chariots. Each is 20 hammers, so I will pay 3 times in gold for 120 gold total for those. Paid till either T55 or when you have Currency (because before it is obviously not possible).

So, anything I forgot, anything you would like to add?

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

[COLOR="sienna"]scooter,

one thing I DID forget: No word to Lewwyn about the deal. Especially not if you sell me those chariots. I won't have won anything if Lewwyn knows that I'll get some quicker then he thinks.

Serdoa[/COLOR]

So basically I am not sure what scooter is doing in this war. He claims he is merely a "mercenary" and I push him to sell me his services instead of Lewwyn. It might be though that he is lying to me and actually is having a stronger relationship with Lewwyn then he tells me. Therefore I have also included some "information" which I don't mind if he shares with Lewwyn.

Anyway, about the actual deal I propose: I do not care if he gets the land to my west. I won't win this game, so why shall I fight over land with him? I'd rather make sure that Lewwyn leaves this game before me, thats my goal now. I also don't mind to pay 120 gold to get two chariots. It is much too expensive, but if I set it up correctly, I can at least kill 2 of Lewwyns axes, maybe all 3. And kill the city in the process. And if scooter doesn't agree to sell them, but to the NAP, then I can at least settle my horses city and use Keshiks and Gers to harass Lewwyn.

[Serdoa]

T47, played. No update though except for diplo before the next turn hasn't reached me.

[COLOR="Silver"]Serdoa,

I'm thinking. I'm a little slow on civ stuff right now because I'm in the middle of exam week, so apologies on that. Since I haven't decided, I kept my chariots stationary this turn. I'll let you know tomorrow what I'll be doing. Regardless of what I decide - I'll keep whatever you've said quiet from Lewwyn.

scooter[/COLOR]

Uh, yeah, whatever. I am pretty sure you have decided a long time ago that you help kill me, even that I still don't understand what you win by it.

[COLOR="Sienna"]scooter,

well, no problem with that, I couldn't play the save in the morning anyway so you have some more time to think about it. Of course, thats only the case if you do not let me wait simply because you first want to check if Lewwyns 2 axes and your 2 chariots can take Beshbalik? If so: No you can't, I can tell you that upfront.

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

Sandover wrote also back. We had some exchanges, the last one having me ask for some advice. It was good advice he gave, interesting as well. Some stuff pretty clear, other stuff something you might easily forgot if you don't get reminded on it. Anyway I answered to it, thanking him.

[COLOR="Yellow"]Serdoa,

I'm glad you find those pointers useful.

Scooter indicated in his last message that he isn't likely to remain with his chariot in your territory for long, and that he's only there because Lewwyn payed him. He could be feeding me false information, so don't take this for granted, but it's probably worth keeping in mind.

His Dark Lordship, Pharaoh Sandover[/COLOR]

Have to answer that now.

[Serdoa]

Ok, some turns (T47 - T49) have been played.

EOT47, moved the three workers on the tile 2S,1E of Turfan to chop there next turn. Moved one archer on the hill 2SW of the cap accordingly to Lewwyns movement. Production in the cities is only correct for Beshbalik. The others produced a barracks (cap) or put hammers into an axe (Turfan).



I also took a screen of the demos - ouch



EOT48, I moved the spear and one archer to the tile 1NW of Beshbalik to counter a possible axe movement up there as I want to get the wheat online sometimes and my discussions about a NAP and peace with scooter got far enough that I assumed we would be at peace at the end of that turn. Was right with that btw.

Another archer moved on the hill 2SW of the cap and the archer who was stationed there moved to the forest 1SW of it. Again, just to counter movement of Lewwyns axe. I also moved the worker away from the forest 1SE of the cap to the tile 1S of it to build a road. If Lewwyn moved his axe onto the wheat tile I could directly attack with my C1,S1 axe (unfortunately he didn't).



And my scout moved in a way that he would be dead T49:



Update for T49 and diplo coming tomorrow or sometimes.

[Serdoa]

Ok, well, that was not exactly "tomorrow", sorry for that. Anyway, some turn updates

T49, killed his axe which was on the way to my wheat with an archer and a spear - lost the archer; EOT situation:



T50, apparently nothing happened as I have no screenie

T51, I do have a screenie, but the only thing you can see is my stack (1 Axe, 1 Spear, 5 Archers) which I assembled to move up on Mt. Nebo - he has 3 axes and 1 warrior in it, so I actually do have chances to raze it.




I also took a screenie of my tech-screen in case anyone is interested in it



T52, as all of you probably already know, I razed Mt. Nebo. Lewwyn did evacuate all troops out of the city, so he unfortunately did not lose anything. He did put them on the tile 1SE of the city (forested hill), making it "impossible" to dispatch them



Well, and now I played T56 and wait for Lewwyn to play again so that I can tell you my cunning plan - and if it worked or not

As for diplo: I asked scooter for a map of the horse city location (and got it) so I could better plan where to settle it. I talked with Gaspar once or twice, but just some information about the war. Thats pretty much only to keep him on my good side as I'd rather not have him intervene on Lewwyns side - though I doubt that from what he told me till now. But you can never know. I also talked with Sandover, but only a few sentences as he doesn't have much time this week for diplo. He told me that he probably can't do anything against Lewwyn getting horses online. Thats a pity but something we have to live with I guess. At least I will have HAs as well - I intend to whip the first within the next 4 turns or so. We'll see. Maybe I just produce spears and let him come. After all he would need quite some HAs to get through walls and some spears, so he'd probably could only pillage and uh... theres not all that much to pillage to start with

[Serdoa]

Have written the update already, can't post it now. It'll come though.

[Serdoa]

Declared war on scooter, just to make the game more interesting. Sorry for that scooter, I know I have no chance at winning at all but on the other hand you did not really try to secure that flank of your empire and instead let our NAP run out. So I guessed I better attack you now when I do have nearly 20 Keshiks available as to wait till you have Rifles.