[SPOILERS] Tales from the Enchanted Forest - Thessa of the Ljosalfar

[Nyktorion]

Turn 130

Foreign news:

WarriorKnight researched Currency this turn, and Irgy researched Deception.

As planned, WarriorKnight cancelled his delivery of water mana, now that 10 turns are up, and I got everything I wanted out of it.

Mardoc took a huge revolution:



So he has few enough farms (probably due to the huge Lanun coast affinity) to make City States more profitable than Aristocracy. Also, there we have the first undercouncil member now. As far as I know, it'll still take a second one until a head coucilor can be voted. And only a few (4?) turns after that, the first opportunity to make a real resolution (like the great sage one) arises. So I think I should be fine with first reseraching Alteration, then Deception, and then joining the undercouncil.

And here's the confirmation of what Thoth wrote in the tech thread:



I wonder how that could happen. There's not much unowned land between the Malakim and Elohim borders, and much of it is even visible to me:



I doubt Irgy would just put Rosier up on one of the single free tiles south of that. Also, Thoth has OB with neither Irgy nor WarriorKnight, so Rosier wasn't killed on Elohim or Malakim territory. So did Rosier indeed expose himself on one of those single unowned tiles? Or was he surprised by cultists back in his own lands? I really wonder what happened there

Finally, here's a picture of Spilan, the barb city between WarriorKnight and myself:



You can also see an Elohim supplies unit here; did WarriorKnight get it out of that dungeon near Cahir Abbey? With libraries and temples of the order, it can build some pretty nice things now.

Diplo:

WarriorKnight asks about Spilan:

Hi

It seems a barb city has appeared between us. It's been a while since we talked about our border but I seem to recall that you conceded the mana node between us to me. Since the barb city has the mana node in it's BFC, I think that I have the right to capture it. Is that ok with you?

Regards,
WarriorKnight

Since we have been friends for the whole game now, and have to work together against Thoth anyway, I just give it to him without trying to negotiate at all. Of course, I would also like it if he appreciate this later in the game, when the opportunity to appreciate it arises

Hi,

of course, I doubt that actually taking this city would benefit any of us. Even with ancient forests all around, it would be quite marginal until access to vitalize. So I think we are mainly discussing the pillaging gold and the XP from fighting the barbs here.

I don't mind if you just take this. In fact, I'd be pleased if those things could help you improve our position for when that inevtiable war against Thoth comes around...

best regards,
Nyktorion

[Nyktorion]

Turn 131

WarriorKnight would like to have his nature mana now; that's fine with me...



Thoth's golden age has ended. That means he didn't use the great bard to immediately append a second one.

Mardoc has founded his 11th city, Coolio.

Golden Igloo got its fourth cultural ring. This claimed two quite interesting tiles:



First, he got the roaded hill at our border within his cultural control now. Second, Maenalus is not neutral anymore, either; exploring it now would be *really* pushing our NAP, and maybe give him ideas like devastating my coastal improvement from outside my borders?

Another thing I saw is that Thoth has really decided on a path for his adventurer now. He has been upgraded to a chariot.

The end of Thoth's GA is quite visible in his hammer and GNP graphs. Unfortunately, he's still much stronger than anyone else in these departments:





His soldier count is growing steadily:



Diplo:

Mardoc came back to me for our air/air deal:

On the Air mana deal - would it work for me to have the two air manas at ~T140? That's when I expect to be manufacturing a good chunk of Adepts.

Something I hadn't considered on the Tigers until recently was that I need to build Carnivals first. Which may be a while. Maybe a tiger deal would be best timed for after the Malakim war, when you can just walk them to me (assuming it goes well).

- Mardoc

Quite fine with me, but if possible, I'd prefer the mana to be back under my control by T150. Let's just see if that is possible for Mardoc...

Around T140 would be fine for my side of the Air mana deal. However, since my NAP with Thoth will run out at T150, and I might get my first mages by that time (depending on XP development), I'd actually prefer it to be on the earlier side rather than the later side of ~T140.

-- Nyktorion

As announced in our previous diplo, WarriorKnight and I had a chat again. Sadly, there several interruptions (2 during the chat) in the connection to gmail today. Durng the second one, WK interrupted the chat for other reasons; but we might soon continue it. Here is the first part of the chat:

11:01 WarriorKnight: hi
Ich: hey there
Just played my turn
WarriorKnight: i can see
tracker is quite informative
Ich: When it gets to you, you should have the second source of Nature mana
WarriorKnight: excellent
11:02 are you interested in life mana double up? I'm not but if nature double doesn't suit you then we could do nature for life
11:03 Ich: Hmm
Actually I don't know which of the two I'd rather take
11:04 None of the two were actually a kind of maa that's really first priority; the idea of my deal was rather to take up those free promotions when they are lying around and are so easy to grab for both of us
WarriorKnight: fair enough
11:05 Ich: But I'll have to think about which of the two I'd rather take when presented with the choice
WarriorKnight: i could've taken the life promotions, but I can get them for free with devouts
if i can ever be bothered researching poisons
11:06 Ich: right ^^
11:07 anyway, for my choice, I guess I'll have time until T150 or so, when my mages come in
WarriorKnight: yeah, free promotions on upgrade is very nice
11:08 Ich: I think you get those Life I promotions for Confessors, right?
11:09 So if you ever want to pick it up for adepts/mages too, my offer still stands, of course
11:10 WarriorKnight: that's true, but there are better spells than life for mages to take, and i cant get as many as you or irgy
Ich: Okay
11:11 WarriorKnight: anyway, do you know what thoth has done with the drama bard?
Ich: haven't seen anything yet
11:12 when I got it, I'd have expected him to get yet another GA on top of the Bone Palace's one
WarriorKnight: me too
Ich: but seems like he didn't do that (yet)
I don't like that Thoth got that bard - after currency, I would have wanted to research drama myelf =/
11:13 with ~10 FoL cities, that shrine would already have been quite nice
WarriorKnight: well, it was available for a really long time, i thought it would've fallen much earlier
11:14 Ich: Well I wouldn't really have had the research power to take it much earlier
without other sacrifices, at least
and others don't profit as much from just a bard
11:15 WarriorKnight: yeah, that's probably why, drama has very little other use
Ich: Another thing about Thoth
I've seen his adventurer again
and he has further upgraded him
he's a chariot now
11:16 WarriorKnight: really? im suprised at that
Ich: At least, this one won't be profiting from raider, then
WarriorKnight: im not sure if upgrading units gives raider, but if it did then he couldve waited a bit
11:17 Ich: I don't kreally know either, but now, it's set in stone
but even without that, he wouldn't have had to decide that early
WarriorKnight: i guess he could promote to it being a hero and all
11:18 sucks that he managed to kill rosier though
11:19 Ich: Right; I wonder how that could happen, though?
There's not much unowned land between you and Thoth, after all
WarriorKnight: i saw it, irgy left him on the coast south of me and 2 cultists were nearby
Ich: and without OB, I don't think Rosier was killed on Elohim or Malakim ground
WarriorKnight: in neutral territory
Ich: Ouch
11:20 so, it was in that Remnants of Patria area
or further south east?
WarriorKnight: further, directly south of my capital
Ich: ah
WarriorKnight: thoth has claimed the remants of patria area
11:22 Ich: Though I wonder a bit that there's still neutral area south of your capital
I would have expected it to be completely divided between you and Irgy yet
WarriorKnight: it is, by neutral i mean not in anyone's cultural border
we've both been a bit slow claiming that area
11:26 Ich: Hmm, that's bad; and to top it, Rosier will have given lots of XP when he die
11:27 SO we can expect the cultist who struck the killing blow to grow into a pretty bad monster now
WarriorKnight: well, he's already C3, command 1, march
11:28 need to check the save to see if there's anything else
but he had most of those before killing rosier
11:29 im probably going to have to get optics myself as a counter to cultists before we get started
11:30 Ich: Well, at least you have your most important tech for land units for the future war already (fanaticism)
11:31 WarriorKnight: the only reason i went for it really is corlindale
Ich: Hmm
actually
I think Basium might be quite helpful too
Considering that Thoth's two founded religions are RoK and Empy
11:32 Quite a few of his units might be turning into angels...
WarriorKnight: hmmm, i guess so, but he also has OO and im not estactic about having a AI ally
11:34 nor do i really want to abandon my elohim
11:38 WarriorKnight: i gotta do something, i should be back in half an hour or so if your still online then
11:39 Ich: And the first one an AI Basium would probably declare on will be Irgy...
And the first one an AI Basium would probably declare on will be Irgy...

[Nyktorion]

Next part of the WarriorKnight chat:

12:09 WarriorKnight: hi, back again
Ich: Hi back
I wonder
WarriorKnight: yeah, AI basium probably wouldn't work out
12:10 Ich: Have been disconnectd from the chat once or twice in our chat before, too?
WarriorKnight: i've seen you disconnected, but i can see other people online
Ich: hmm, then just my connection to gmail has been shaky today =/
12:12 I noticed
Corlindale should benefit from those free spell sphere promotions, too, right?
12:13 That would be nice
WarriorKnight: yeah, that's partially why im requesting it now
ive worked out a deal with mardoc to get his water mana too
Ich: Ahh, that means, his XP score will already be quite good when our NAPs with Thoth run out
12:14 WarriorKnight: yep
gives him enough time to learn some decent spells
Ich: Won't be enough for Twincast, though, I fear
WarriorKnight: i dont plan on using twincast
12:15 it requires 6 non spell promotions on a 0 strength unit
Ich: Ahh
If Irgy lends you his ice mana
then at least
that would mean snowfall
WarriorKnight: plus 3 spell spheres
12:16 yes it does, doesn't it convient eh?
Ich: yup, quite convenient
and quite ironic, using the winter itself to fight the desert nomads
12:17 WarriorKnight: well, if we're getting into lore discussion, using a shadow spell to fight the malakim seems more appropriate
Ich: Right, with them being sos sun focussed, too
WarriorKnight: the opposite to ice i think is nature
Ich: Right, elves take extra damage from ice sources, too =/
12:18 so it has to be natre <-> ice
WarriorKnight: keep in mind that tsunami deals cold damage too
there is no water damage
12:19 Ich: Well, Tsunami will f you no matter what
WarriorKnight: yeah, also the god that fought mulcarn was the nature one, although the reason mulcarn could enter is because bhall fell
true
Ich: unless you can prevent it/outmaneuver/outspeed those cultists
12:20 WarriorKnight: well, the only counters i can think of are not neing on the coast or fast moving units
*being
aka ships
12:21 Ich: yup, that's why I was so glad about getting the caravel tech for free
WarriorKnight: well free beakers is free beakers, cant complain about that as long as the tech is useful somehow
optics definately will
12:22 fortunately, its reasonably cheap so I don't have to sacrifice too much to pick it up
Ich: And on land, I think fireballs and spell extension will be fast enough for those cultists
or hasted monks
WarriorKnight: on land we should be more concerned about chariots
12:23 can get up to 6 move with 2 mobility promos and haste
Ich: Well, 3 move and raiders is quite something, too
12:24 WarriorKnight: yeah, i imagine its not so bad for you, as chariots have a penalty for forest combat
Ich: Luckily, the territory between myself and THoth is quite hilly and foresty, and there's only one conecting road now
Even the part in his culture has quite a few hills
12:25 and Gilden will have Drill IV when the NAP runs out
WarriorKnight: hmmm, i wonder how promoted gilden is, hes been around for a while now
12:26 Ich: I gave him
Combat III
Shock II
And now, Drill IV
WarriorKnight: 9 promos? nice
Ich: yeah, he's getting close to 80 XP
though he doesn't have Drill IV yet
12:27 but will have the XP for it in time
WarriorKnight: valin only has around 20 so far, but will have 40 by t160
Ich: Combat III and Shock II were for cracking through Mr. Yellow's defences, and a direct counter to Thoth's two heroes at that time
12:28 and Drill will make him more resilient to those mass attacks
WarriorKnight: sucks a bit then that axes/swords upgrade to chariots
Ich: yup
like his adventurer
didn't think of that in time
WarriorKnight: oh well, they only have 3 defense (without metal) so if he leaves them exposed them he's in a world of hurt
Ich: Still, with Combat III, and on a hill, he'll still be a nice stack defender
12:29 and offense against chariots - no comment, right
WarriorKnight: are chariots immune to first strikes?
just checked, no
phew, that couldve been bad
Ich: Wow
good question
luckily no
12:30 Even Knights aren't immune to first strikes
but horse archers would be
12:31 WarriorKnight: hmm, i thought valin did, but i guess not
Ich: horsemen aren't immune to first strikes either
WarriorKnight: although i suppose its not too hard to get shadow 1 and then blur for the immunity
although thoth getting shadow mana is questionable
12:32 Ich: and, he hasn't seen Gilden's promotions yet
WarriorKnight: well he has hunting so unless your hiding him he'll know soon enough

Now, Irgy has come online, too:

12:33 Steven hat sich angemeldet.
WarriorKnight hat sich angemeldet.
WarriorKnight: hi
Steven: hey
Ich: Hi to all here
WarriorKnight: guess we're all here, yay
Steven: probably can't stay but thought I'd say hi
12:34 WarriorKnight: so where we're we?
Ich: hmm, we were talking about what we use against Thoth
and particularly about Gilden Silveric
12:35 I hope Thoth won't get his counters against those first strikes in time
Steven: hopefully at least his cultists will be distracted wiping me out
or not, I might be ok
12:36 WarriorKnight: btw, those cultists aren't heading your way, i have a hawk watching them and will let you what they do
i doubt thoth will get shadow mana for blur, surely there are better uses for his mana
Steven: great
there's two harassing me - one from east so circumnavigated
but no losses yet
12:37 except of course rosy
Ich: well, I heard they took Rosier =/
WarriorKnight: he circumnavigated? wow, entirely possible though
Ich: the cultist who did the final blow will certainly become a monster now
yes, some turns ago, there was a cultist snooping around near my island
12:38 but he would have been quite quick if he is where Rosier was already
WarriorKnight: well, im not sure what to say other than advise you both to build boats
Steven: no the east one wasn't the rosier one
WarriorKnight: he has 10 cultists from his worldspell
12:39 i can see 3 of them in the south, and im fairly certain another was used for a temple
Ich: Well, I think he turned 2 or 3 into temples, but that still leaves enough of them
I have seen 1 in my northwest, and the one near my island
about the rest, I don't know
WarriorKnight: mardoc has surely seen some
12:40 Ich: many turns ago, I saw 2 or 3 of them on a rather large island south of the remnants of patria area
but they might be anywhere now
WarriorKnight: ah well, fortunately they're irreplaceable unless thoth goes back to OO
12:41 although Emp is more likely and more worrying
Steven: yep, if all goes well I'll kill a few and they're gone for good
12:42 Ich: Hmm, I hope he won't just decide to remain in the safe ocean with them
12:43 Anyway, I plan to have a few caravels ready at T150, when my own NAP with Thoth runs out
WarriorKnight: arent pirates buildable at optics and have the same cost with a higher strength?
12:44 at least, that's what i plan on building
Ich: right; they require some copper, though
and they don't upgrade from gallyes
12:45 WarriorKnight: in an amusing twist of fate, i popped a spare copper last turn
if you plan to upgrade though, then that's understandable
Ich: well, I want to upgrade the galleys I have
12:46 but I want some new privateers, too
WarriorKnight: ok, fair enough
im slightly conserned at our nap situation though, although theres not much we can do to make things better
12:47 Ich: I plan to get my own copper at some time (when I research towards sanitation), but that'll be after alteration (for that body node) and deception (for undercouncil)
WarriorKnight: irgy is already at war, nyktorion needs to wait another 20 turns, I need another 30 and mardoc another 40
12:48 Ich: well, I doubt that Thoth will go at Irgy full-out
there's just nothing he'd win out of that
except for doing some destruction with his spare cultists, of course
WarriorKnight: true, but unless you think you have a really good chance against thoth 1-1, we'd essentially be attacking him at different intervals, and that will not work
12:49 Ich: but I don't expect Thoth to actually be able to keep anything he could take from you, irgy
WarriorKnight: or unless you wait/defend for 10-20 turns without a NAP for me/Mardoc to be free
Ich: I think I'll be able to at least withstand Thoth well until you can join
12:50 WarriorKnight: well, if you think so, then I believe you
just don't lose your army before we can join in
Ich: I'll take care
12:51 the only thing that's really getting me the mre I thin about it
are those cultists
WarriorKnight: yeah, those things are really painful if your on the coast, which we all are
12:52 it's like water walking chalid at priesthood, only you can get several of them
12:53 the only upside i can thing of is that thoth is last in the turn order, so depending on how your NAP is signed you can attack them first
Ich: Mine is until "eot 150"
12:54 so I should be able to hit first on my T151
WarriorKnight: yep, pretty much the same thing for me, except till EoT160
12:55 Ich: The optimal scenario would be
if Mardoc built Gibbon
and somehow managed to cast impersonate leader on Thoth
12:56 WarriorKnight: weren't we discussing banning that?
ar at least me and irgy
*or
Ich: yes, but as far as I understood, nothing actually came out of that discussion
WarriorKnight: well, i doubt mardoc will be keen on that, he already told me he plans to have a complete OO army on T170
12:57 Ich: the discussion just broke off after some people said whether they were fine with a ban
WarriorKnight: saverous, stygian guards maybe hemah
12:58 i doubt he's want to change that, especially since there's no guarantee that he can even get gibbon close enough for the spell
Ich: well, then he should be researching mind stapling pretty soon
WarriorKnight: well, he has until t170, plenty of time
no rush since he's the only one with OO
12:59 although if he did pull that off in a critical moment, oh that would be awesome
practically guarantee its banned for all future RB games
Ich: well, he should still get some XP on Saverous if he wants him to be useful
13:00 WarriorKnight: well, if your that fussed about it, maybe you should talk to him about it?
13:01 after all, didn't you get currency recently?
Ich: Yup, maybe I should generally start some Thoth-war-preparation talks with him, too
WarriorKnight: well, it should be the 4 of us since that's what it is
Ich: Yup, I got currency recently
13:02 well, as long as Mardoc and Irgy don't have contact, that'll be a bit tedious
WarriorKnight: ah yes, forgot about that
Ich: but I hope that obstacle will be out of the way soon, too
maybe we'll have a 4-way chat at some point?
13:03 WarriorKnight: mardoc has hunting though, ive offered for him to rebase to my city for a quick contact with irgy, havent heard anything from him about that though
with a hawk i mean
4 way chat? plausible but theres little chance of it becoming a regularity
Ich: that would be the easiest solution
13:04 even once before the NAPs run out would already be quite practical, I think
WarriorKnight: well, it all depends on what mardoc wants to do though
13:05 map trade is probably a yes either way since we need to know as much as possible about our enemy
13:06 Ich: with Mardoc knowing a completely different side of Thoth's empire than we all do, that sounds quite appealing than
WarriorKnight: well, i guess we need to hear what mardoc and irgy think though
13:08 BTW, while mardoc has told us what he's likely to field, i dont really know what you guys will be fielding (except mages) and i dont think either of you know what im bringing
13:09 Ich: So for my part, my land army will still be archers, priests and Gilden
augmented by mages now, of course
and then I'd like to add those caravels/privateers on the sea
WarriorKnight: i think we'll all need naval units
13:10 Ich: I guess for you it'll be monks and Valin and Corlindale?
WarriorKnight: yeah, and adepts too
im probably going to get some rangers too
Ich: just a word of caution
13:11 I realised that Rathas have a +50% bonus against recon units
WarriorKnight: i know that, but thats the only bonus against recon units, i think all units can get shock and cover with a few getting scourge
13:12 plus despite being slightly more expensive than normal tier 3 units , they can be strength 9 with bless and poison blade
13:14 Ich: ah, that's where the nature mana gets interesting
though youÄd need mages for poison blade
or Corlindale
WarriorKnight:
thats why i really like ffh, or at least this game, everything comes together nicely
13:16 btw, do you think its worth me sending a confessor to bless your units?
Ich: I'd definitely like that
WarriorKnight: i wont be able to bless your units until my NAP expires due to proxy warring, but it should be very nice
13:18 Ich: in the meantime
while we get our mana trades going
maybe I'll pick up enchantment II with one mage
Flaming arrows will be quite nice, too
13:19 hmm, archers + bless + flaming arrows would be 6/7 already
WarriorKnight: well, since your dexterious i imagine it could be quite nice
Ich: yeah, especially against those chariots, my archers might be quite motivated to do some offense, too
13:20 WarriorKnight: well, still stronger on the defense, but chariots are weaker on the defense, so it balances out
6/7 vs 7/5, and archers are cheaper since their tier2
13:21 (assuming iron)
Ich: assuming iron?
WarriorKnight: iron chariots, thoth is probably going to get the mines'
13:22 id be very suprised if he didn't
Ich: ah, I was somehow relating it to the archers
WarriorKnight: well longbows can use metal, but archers cant
Ich: that's why I was so confused
13:23 though even bronze longbosw
would already be quite nice t3 for me
6/6 + bronze + flaming arrows = 8/8
9/9 when blessed
WarriorKnight: plus bless for 9
ninja'd
Ich: :P
WarriorKnight: meh
13:24 i can barely get 9 strength myself with rangers, although isnt bowyers fairly expensive?
i find it is when im playing amurites for firebows
Ich: right, bowyers is expensive
13:25 even more expensive than sorcery or animal handling
13:26 yeah, and as amurites, you'd want another very expensive tech from another tree on top of that (arcane lore)
WarriorKnight: arcane lore isnt that bad, save yourself 3 sages and you can bulb it as soon as you get sorcery
assuming dain, i cant imagine valledia pulling that off
Ich: well
3 sages is also quite something
13:27 WarriorKnight: get one free from undercouncil :D
Ich: at least, you immediately get one back
13:28 WarriorKnight: or maybe thats too SP orientated
13:30 Ich: hmm, both bowyers and arcane lore seem nice, but too expensive compared to other priorities
spell extesion II, longbows :D ...
WarriorKnight: for me righteousness is lovely, but thats twice as expensive as your arcane lore...
13:31 Sphener, paladins :D...
Ich: well, if you could get apaldins, they'd stomp over a lot of stuff now
=)
WarriorKnight: well, if i could get auric, i could stomp over a lot of stuff right now, but that's not going to happen is it?
13:32 Ich: Well, it's going to happen even less than righteousness
Well, I need to be gone for about half an hour or so now
If you won't be there after that
WarriorKnight: might be here when you get back, nothing else to do tonight
Ich: I'd like to say now, it was a pleasure to chat with you again
13:33 see you ^^
WarriorKnight: that was a lovely chat too, cya

Maybe, we will be talking yet more now...

[Nyktorion]

Last part of my chat with WK:

13:58 Ich: Hi again
14:04 WarriorKnight: hey
14:05 one good thing is that irgy is getting all the messages so we dont need to forward anything to him
Ich: yup, convenient
14:06 WarriorKnight: so uh, where did we leave off last time?
Ich: we were talking about nuce things that are just too expensive
WarriorKnight: ah yes, talking about things which would be extremely painful for thoth that were unreasonable
Ich: though there are at least theoretical options to get them, like tower of divination or infernal grimoire
14:07 but don't think they'll apply to us right now
WarriorKnight: well, i think only irgy will ever get infernal pact for the grimiore
Ich: well
grimoiring malevolent designs might be a theoretical option for him
14:08 if he could pull it off, then those beasts of agares would make life really difficult for anyone who's against him
14:09 WarriorKnight: i guess, but im not sure if he has priesthood or fanaticism yet, also that he's mentioned that it'll be a while before he gets infernal pact
14:10 arent they painful to build? 4 pop loss and 4 turns revolt
Ich: according to my tech screen in the foreign advisor, he doesn't have priesthood yet
WarriorKnight: you have the game open?
14:11 Ich: well, they're painful
but I think they'd be very much worth it
i have civilopedia open, and my collection of screenshots from the game
WarriorKnight: fair enough
14:12 what else? strength of will?
Ich: hmm, even arcane lore would be pushing it price-wise
WarriorKnight: theology
Ich: same
WarriorKnight: (keep in mind these are all unreasonable options remember)
Ich: though the first to profit from that would be Thoth himself, with his certainly >26XP cultist
14:13 right xD
WarriorKnight: not really, you need the state religion for high priests
Ich: Let Irgy get his black dragon, and let that dragon slay the Malakim single-handedly?
WarriorKnight: cultists cant upgrade into runekeepers
Ich: right
14:14 WarriorKnight: ah, but the malakim will have teutorix by then too
Ich: though some speakers might be worth a religion switch?
WarriorKnight: krakens can be very painful, strength 17 in the ocean
i think
14:15 still, it'll just mean that we cant do anything against thoth on the ocean, and mardoc will have to do everything
Ich: good thing theology is so unreasonable at this point in the game ^^
WarriorKnight: I wish I could get something better than unyielding order though, summons treants is awesome
14:16 Ich: unless thoth gets a tower of divination, that is
he starts with 3 of the 4 required mana kinds for that one
WarriorKnight: nope, 2
mind and sun
life is alteration mana
14:17 although theres better things for the malakim to take than Theology
Ich: right, he doesn't have spirit mana, just life
WarriorKnight: worst thing i can think of is probably warhorses with those high promoted swords/chariots
14:18 yep, spirit mana is supposed to be my speciality
Ich: though warhorses won't fit nicely together with his plan to get the mines instead of iron working
14:19 WarriorKnight: well theres the flaw then
maybe strength of will? if he gets enough multipliers and charasmatic, he can build instant archmages!
keep in mind thoth is the tech leader so arcane lore shouldnt be much of a problem
14:20 Ich: how much XP would instant archmages with CHA be again?
17? 18?
WarriorKnight: oh, maybe commune with nature. it's possible to use high priest spells with druids instead of high priests
something like that
14:22 Ich: okay, but they'd need the divine promotion from somewhere, though
from being upgraded?
WarriorKnight: yep, his cultists can becomd druids who can summon krakens
14:23 if he's planning on switching to Emp, then we could have to face Crown of Brilliance
although Chalid is probably deadly enough
14:24 fortunately, he'll need animal handling and feral bond, so if he does go for that we'll have plenty of warning
Ich: THough feral bod has its own nice goodie already, with the Baron
14:25 WarriorKnight: and you get kithra also
Ich: only problem, it's another 2 sorcery-kind techs
WarriorKnight: but apart from that there's little use in feral bond
for you true, but thoth has a massive gnp so we could expect it from him
14:26 fin, commerce bonus, RoK...
at least the golden age is over
14:27 Ich: I am actually rather glad he doesnt go for a second GA with that bard
WarriorKnight: me too, although that does leave the question of what will he do/has done with the bard
14:28 Ich: our two border cities are too far away from each other for culture bombing to have too much effect
and my own border city already has a great bard, which Mr. Yellow had put in there
14:29 WarriorKnight: i knew he had one
sorry, i guessed he settled one and you confirmed it for me
14:30 Ich: was actually quite blatant from the victory conditions screen
WarriorKnight: anyway, i havent seen one on my border, although there's a few different potential places where he could bomb my border city
Ich: its culture was going up by exactly 12 per turn
14:31 WarriorKnight: well, not everyone checks at stuff like that, i was just going off the culture graph
14:32 i dont know if he'll use it against mardoc, especially since they have a border agreement
maybe he got it simply because it only took a turn?
Ich: yup
he got drama just 1 urn after his last tch before that
14:33 WarriorKnight: although that doesnt answer the question of what hell do with it
he'll
14:34 maybe keep it as a sanctuary counter? i don't know
14:35 Ich: sanctuary counter sounds plausbile
if he chooses the "spend immediately for 4k *2/3" culture
14:37 WarriorKnight: yeah, although since irgy is likely to send units through me, i cant use it without totally isolating irgy's army, thoth might realise that
14:38 oh well, maybe he's already settled it somewhere and this is a hypothetical discussion
Ich: hmm
problem is
14:39 the bard being settled won't show in any obvious way at this stage of the game
14:40 WarriorKnight: then it's fairly useful since we're busy running around paranoid wondering what he could do with it, when he's already used it
14:42 speaking of using great people, i was suprised he built the RoK shrine with it
14:43 sure thats his religion and its spread around a lot but better military options would be the Emp shrine or the altar
Ich: you expected him to get the Empy shrine instead?
well, that might mean at least
14:44 WarriorKnight: possibly, it gives a boost to disciple units and gives thoth another awesome sun mana
Ich: maybe he's not that much into the arcane line after all?
I wouldn't be sad if our instant mage/sand lion discussion was for moot
14:45 WarriorKnight: me neither, although the alternative chalid/ raider chariot and rathas arent much better
14:46 Ich: And if he has Rathas, what would he need a second sun mana for?
14:47 WarriorKnight: well, free scorch promo's, more units with blinding light, Auraelus and chalid strength affinity...
14:48 Ich: hmm, chalid affinity, yeah
so
maybe, he doesn't want chalid so much either...?
14:49 or he went more for the short term shrine benefits, and wil get another prophet for the empy shrine some time?
WarriorKnight: well, we cant assume the best case scenario, then when its worse then that we areen't prepared for it
14:50 another prophet is possible, although he isn't PHI and has minimal priest slots
Ich: well, he can get a number of priests
WarriorKnight: 3 at max
14:51 Ich: 2 kinds of temples (soon 3) + tablets of banbur
+ desert shrine
WarriorKnight: no, more with RoK shrine (whoops)
hmmm, that sucks
back to the drawing board
14:52 he can actually get 7 priests at most
Ich: okay, so if he wants another prophet, he can get one rather easily
14:53 WarriorKnight: its probably safe to assume that
and might build the Emp shrine with it
14:55 Ich: so, what do we make out of all that? for me, that underlines again the importance of mobility in our armies
be ready to strike before he can crown/blind/move around/whatever you
and the more we get into the tech tree
14:56 the more important this mobility (and inability to just hole up in a fortified city) becomes in my eyes
WarriorKnight: definately
my main army should be able to move 3 tiles with haste
Ich: so, that means
Body I
14:57 Moblity I
Spell Extension I
WarriorKnight: well, im not summoning...
Ich: are very nice and important promotions
(Spell Extensio I IF you are summoning )
14:58 WarriorKnight: although with all the desert lying around (at least in my area), either im only going to be able 2 moves a turn or i waste an adept springing every turn
by 'waste' i mean leave him behind the rest of the stack unprotected
14:59 just a problem of thoth having nomad
15:00 Ich: hmm
why do you have to waste him?
ahh
sorry
WarriorKnight: assume all desert right?
Ich: the restriction is to moving only 2 tiles per turn
WarriorKnight: 2 moves to enter, thoth only needs 1
Ich: not 1
15:01 WarriorKnight: y'know, snowfall might mean that i dont have to waste an adept, but I might want to actually use the collateral from the spell every know and again
15:03 although if thoth indeed has rathas and chalid, well i can't imagine that itll survive for a long time
15:05 anyway, its getting late, i better go
thanks for the uber length chat
15:06 cya
Ich: Thanks as well
see you, good night

In the meantime, Mardoc declared that an early loan of the air mana would be fine for him:

That makes sense. My first adept is born T137, is that early enough?

- Mardoc

Response:

Starting the loan at T137 would be very fine for me (actually, anything <=139 would effectively be the same to me).

-- Nyktorion

[Caustic Soda]

Now there's some walls of text. Nice read. Is there any particular reason you included the "x joined the conversation" lines in the second chatlog, though? it seems rather redundant. Also, how many mages do you expect/guesstimate you'll have ready for action when it comes time for the war with the Malakim?

[Nyktorion]

Now there's some walls of text. Nice read. Is there any particular reason you included the "x joined the conversation" lines in the second chatlog, though? it seems rather redundant. Also, how many mages do you expect/guesstimate you'll have ready for action when it comes time for the war with the Malakim?

Just left it in as another mark that Irgy is now in the chat, too.

I hope (almost?) all of my maelstrom/utility mages will be ready by T150, and maybe 2 fireballers on top of that. If Thoth has any Empyrean goodies by then (Rathas/Chalid), or other ways to really hurt my stack on his ground (sand lions/collateral), this probably won't be enough to really go on offence alone then; I'll have to try my luck in a joint attack with WarriorKnight and maybe Irgy then. Otherwise, if he just gets more (iron) chariots, I might very well take a stab at Golden Igloo...

[Nyktorion]

Turn 132

Foreign news: Mardoc has Optics now, and Thoth has Deception. With that, it's now pretty much set in stone that I'll get Deception after Alteration. I plan to revolt into Consumption and Undercouncil, then.

WarriorKnight has founded another city:



Thoth's cultist has moved yet a bit closer to Maenalus:



My caravel would be in range to pop it next turn.

Question to lurkers: would it be considered a breach of my NAP with Thoth if I just moved in with my caravel and popped Maenalus? And if not, could other things Thoth could do to hurt me (like just destroying some coastal improvement with cultists from outside my borders) be considered non-breachers of the NAP, as well?

There's one last interesting thing I saw after hitting EOT:



I wonder how that Tortoise got wounded. Did it eat something, like a ship, or even a cultist? Or was it just hit by a tsunami, and will get eaten by said cultist next turn?

Diplo:

Mardoc confirms that T137 would be fine for him.

Let's go with T137, then. I assume this means you'll likely want the
deal flipped your way right after that, so you can have instant
Maelstrom mages if any are ready to upgrade? You just don't want to
set that in stone until you know if your adepts will be ready?

- Mardoc

Apart from a direct response, I find that also a good opportunity to get talking about war preparations again, as mentioned in my chat with WarriorKnight.

Yup, those are exactly my thoughts: I wanted the ability to upgrade before our NAP runs out would be very useful for me, but at the same time be insured against adepts' XP curves running a the bad way.

I hope those fireballs, maelstroms, and hastes will give me a good fighting chance agaist Thoth.

How are your own preparations for T170 going? If I recall correctly, you will mainly be going for OO based units, i.e. Saverous, stygian guards, and cultists, is that correct?

best regards,
Nyktorion

[Nyktorion]

Turn 133

Techs: WarriorKnight got Divination this turn (interesting... I thought he would be getting Alteration for enchantment mana), while Thoth and me finished researching Alteration. With my current gold and some deficit research next turn, I should be able to get Deception by the end of next turn, and thus join the undercouncil at the earliest opportunity (i.e. at the same turn as Thoth).

Event Log:



So Irgy joined the undercouncil now. I wonder what WarriorKnight will do with that prophet - will we see the Order Shrine soon, or rather the firsts level of an altar?

Mardoc built founded another city this turn, RTM.

My settling plans are almost getting finishd now. Hyll is currently busy with a settler for the last city on Teldrassil, and F.Destination now start working on a settler to claim my mainland mana node:



Getting some nice synergy out of the forested mines and my expansive bonus here Generally, both Pink Dot and F.Destination are nicely production oriented with all those forest plains hill mines.

Here's another shot of the East Bannorlands showing that all the forestation and springing operations are almost finished. Now I just have to wait for those forests, cottages, and cities to grow, while I try to find other ways to improve my lands...



You can also see most of my adepts in the stack here. Here is a more complete list of them:



Considering that the first adepts came out at T120, I'm now rather confident that I'll have a number of mages by T150.

Diplo:

Got this from Mardoc. Not much too say about that, I'd guess...

At the moment I'm focused on infrastructure and growing whippable
population. Yes, the heart of my army will be tentacled. I intend to
supplement it with Chariots, a navy, and if I'm lucky, a Mage or two.
33 turns is probably not enough for any Mages, but I might get lucky.
If I'm not lucky, then I'll have to build some catapults instead for
inland operations.

- Mardoc

[Ilios]

Hey, thanks for the regular updates.

Could I maybe get a screenshot of the F1 screen, and maybe the military advisor with your best units?

[Nyktorion]

Hey, thanks for the regular updates.

Could I maybe get a screenshot of the F1 screen, and maybe the military advisor with your best units?

I think I'll have to break the "regular updates" part right now; I think I won't get to type up the full turn report today, so I'll do that tomorrow. :neenernee

However, here's already the requested screenshots. F1 screen:



Concerning the military advisor, I decided to show all relevant categories (archers, adepts, and priests). Archery units (including Gilden):



My adepts:



Priests (not all):



And finally, a shot where the two priests that were cut off in the last shot are visible: