Master of Orion 1 unofficial patch

[RefSteel]

((If anybody can provide a good graphical substitution, I'm all in))

Do you know which graphics file(s) would need to be changed? If they're not separate files, in what format would you want the alternative picture? (Not that I'm likely to actually have time to build one either way, but you never know....)

[kyrub]

Thanks, Refsteel, for your interest.

I am currently trying to rewrite the patch, it was very primitive at the time. I will separate it into a bugfix part and into an AI part, so that people may choose between conservative // inovative approach. When it's done, I'd like to try to improve the graphic. If you can help or advice me then, I'll be grateful.

[Andrew]

I am afraid, Andrew, that you need more to prove this is a bug. If you can cite Official Standard Guide with the precise info, then I will start thinking about making the change. Until then, it seems more like a personal wish than a bug. By the way, I find Silicoids perfect as they are. Challenging, but quite strong if played properly. Silicoids are one the most original races in the game.

It simple logic. Is there any guide that explains why Silicoids cannot use SOIL/ATMOS? Right answer the latter question could be only, "Because it useless for Silicoids." But this is wrong because actually it useful for them.
And manual says us about Silicoids, "Planetology is necessary to expand the size of planets."

My 'official' conviction is based on fact that Moo v1.0 readme says:
"The following are changes/corrections to the manual:
- Fertile and Gaia planets increase your planets' base populations
by 25% and 50% respectively, in addition to the increased growth
rates."

The blocked SOIL/ATMOS option does not make Silicoids the unique race, but the constant growth rate in any type of environment does.

I wonder that you appeal to some 'Guide'. Can you cite Official Standard Guide with the precise info that Silicoids were to get the Cloning of 100% chance?

[RefSteel]

It simple logic. Is there any guide that explains why Silicoids cannot use SOIL/ATMOS? Right answer the latter question could be only, "Because it useless for Silicoids."

I would say that, as for many game balance questions, the answer is much more complicated. Here are factors that probably went into the game designers' decision to prevent Coids from using Atmo/Soil/Gaia:

1) The increased population growth rate provided represents a significant part of those techs' value. Putting them in the Silicoid tech tree (and forcing the Coids to Atmospherically Terraform a small hostile world before they can use normal Terraforming on it) would adversely affect the balance of the tech tiers of the 'coid tree, to the point of creating situations where a 'coid player would want to stop advancing the tree simply to avoid acquiring a tech that would actually stunt their empire's development. (See e.g. the Robotic Controls bug in the official release, except without a solution like advancing IIT.) This is especially true with ATMO, especially because...

2) One of the Silicoid advantages is their ability to colonize planets before any other race can colonize or invade them - and in some cases to control planets that no one else can *ever* invade or colonize (i.e. if no one has the necessary Controlled Environment tech in their tree). If 'Coids research ATMO, they can no longer terraform hostile planets without first making them accessible to invasion/colonization by all other races. For that matter...

3) Even with Soil and Advanced Soil, a Silicoid who uses these techs on any planet makes that planet significantly better for other races than for the Silicoids themselves! (Max pop increases for anyone, but alien growth rate at the planet improves while leaving Sili growth rates unchanged there.) And again, normal terraforming cannot begin until the 'coids have made the planet a haven for non-Silicon lifeforms.

4) From a flavor/differentiation-of-races perspective, it's cooler and makes more sense for Silicoids to inhabit lots of hostile, infertile, and non-gaean planets while everyone else is turning their worlds into carbon-based paradises.

5) Whatever your opinion of the advantages to be gained, it is very difficult to believe that the Silis' inability to use these techs is actually a bug. None of ATMO/SOIL/GAIA are ever options on the Sili ECO bar, whereas all three are for all other races; Silis never have Soil Enrichment or Atmospheric Terraforming in their tree, though they do sometimes have Advanced Soil, and though AI Silis are willing to trade for (I think) all three. Especially once the trade-valuation rules are understood (see upthread; basically, the game had no way to rate a tech as simultaneously unwanted by Silicoids and highly valuable to everyone else) Occam's razor says the bug is the occasional presence of Advanced Soil in their tree. Granted, the razor isn't always right; as with the trading issue, there might be a simple explanation for the ECO bar issue, e.g. if it's tied to removing CLEAN. But until there's some reason in the code to believe that (at which point there's still the improbability of incorrectly adding two "no-Silis" flags, versus forgetting to add one late-game one, to contend with) I just can't see it being a bug.

And manual says us about Silicoids, "Planetology is necessary to expand the size of planets."

Right, but this is what Terraforming+X does. The manual doesn't say they have all the same means as other races of expanding the size of planets, only that Planetology is still necessary.

My 'official' conviction is based on fact that Moo v1.0 readme says:
"The following are changes/corrections to the manual:
- Fertile and Gaia planets increase your planets' base populations
by 25% and 50% respectively, in addition to the increased growth
rates."

I actually read this as overwhelming evidence against the notion that the Silis should be able to use these techs. It suggests that the designers at some point envisioned Soil/Gaia primarily as growth rate increasers, and that the increase in planet size as just an additional bonus.

I wonder that you appeal to some 'Guide'.

The OSG is the last and most comprehensive (though still sometimes inaccurate) official guide/manual for MoO 1. It's therefore generally a good indicator of the way the original designers intended the game to work. If the OSG supports the theory that the Silis should be able to use Atmo/Soil/Gaia, that would be valuable evidence in favor of the theory. I don't own a copy of the guide myself, so I can't check to see what it says on the subject, but it would be interesting to know what it does say.

@kyrub: I don't know how valuable my assistance will be, but when you do want someone to have a look at the graphic, let me know!

[sargon0]

The OSG unfortunately adds nothing to the question of if the silis can use Atmo/Soil/Gaia or not. We are left to make our own opinions and the evidence is somewhat contradictory. Refsteel lays out most of the factors I consider important and I support these techs not being usable by the Silicoids. Others will have their own opinions.

[Andrew]

I must thank RefSteel for his effort.
He provided me a solid view of the problem.

I would say that, as for many game balance questions, the answer is much more complicated. Here are factors that probably went into the game designers' decision to prevent Coids from using Atmo/Soil/Gaia:

You are right. I would add even more, majority of the Silicoids' worlds have to be a hostile planets which tend to have a small base size. Due to latter the benefits of using Soil/Gaia will be also small.

I actually read this as overwhelming evidence against the notion that the Silis should be able to use these techs. It suggests that the designers at some point envisioned Soil/Gaia primarily as growth rate increasers, and that the increase in planet size as just an additional bonus.

Such an evidence is neither for nor against Silicoids. It tells only that the changes had done at deadline.
If I understood correctly, you have in mind the additional bonus is to take effect only if the primary bonus is useful for a race? Ok, I like it.

[RefSteel]

I must thank RefSteel for his effort.
He provided me a solid view of the problem.

Glad to oblige! Thanks also for getting me thinking about the subject in greater depth.

Such an evidence is neither for nor against Silicoids. It tells only that the changes had done at deadline.

Good point; I made some assumptions that were probably wrong, and then added overstatement on top of it; sorry about that.

If I understood correctly, you have in mind the additional bonus is to take effect only if the primary bonus is useful for a race? Ok, I like it.

Yup; I think we agree on this one.

[RefSteel]

- nebula speed and nebula ETA should work correctly when launching, with transports and ships having the same speed

The nebula ETA bug seems to persist, at least in some circumstances. See saves 31 through 35 in the attached zip file for a quick test game that demonstrates the situation. If you send Transports from Jag Sands (outside the nebula) to Springs (inside the nebula) they show an ETA of 7 turns. The following turn, still outside the nebula, they show a 6 turn ETA. The following turn, when they reach the actual nebula, the ETA appears to be recalculated, and shows as 4 turns. As you can see by following the en-route transports through the 4 save games, this latter ETA proves to be accurate one (at least in this case). Thus, ETA on launch for travel into a nebula is (at least sometimes) incorrect.

I tested this for ships as well, and the effect is exactly the same at warp 1. I'll continue testing at different warp speeds and for other related circumstances if you wish.

[Zeraan]

I remember reading some articles about Master of Orion, and they mentioned that if you try and disable the copy protection, there were some "clever" stuff that protects against that. I was curious if you've encountered that part of code, and what exactly happens if you disable the copy protection?

I own three legit copies of MoO (mac, windows, and gog.com versions), so this isn't a piracy effort I was just curious what's the "clever" thing was

[kyrub]

@Andrew, Refsteel
Great discussion. This game just keeps surprising me.

Thus, ETA on launch for travel into a nebula is (at least sometimes) incorrect.

Interesting, thanks for report, I'll have a look at it. It seems ages ago I did the changes... don't remember any circumstances other than the ETA thing was a real tough tough issue.

I am currently trying to rework the patch, updating my IDA files. It's quite a slow process. I was naive at the time, thought there would be no bugs, so I have not documented my changes.

Hopefully, at the end of all this tedious process, I can show up with an improved AI performance. MoO AI is not bad, but is has some self-destructing habits (like dipping its own planet in waste). And if we can make its ship designing better...

if you try and disable the copy protection, there were some "clever" stuff that protects against that.

I am pretty sure this is a computer superstition. MoO races can turn on you very quickly, everybody knows that, the events are nasty as well. No copyright clever tricks from programmers as far as I know.