Turn 150 has flipped over. I decided to spend some of our gold on a 1t research of Code of Laws last turn, so we have that, so we can slip in some courthouses when/where appropriate.
And if plako wants to think that our whips and gold went to units and upgrades, sounds good to me!
In the southern theater, we currently have
* 1 chariot
* 1 horse archer
* 3 cats
* 2 axes
* 3 impis
* 1 sword
With more units trickling down that way.
We are up to 30% at breakeven (+8 gpt, 136bpt), and could research Aesthetics in 3t. I bring that up only because from Locke's reports, it took plako 4t to research Aesthetics. So the economy is definitely improving
In addition to a few cats and other units due next turn, we have 3 more harbors, in Reading, Columbia and Tylersville, so that should be another 10 commerce per turn starting next turn.
I accept that you have closed your borders and fully allow that you have the right to spend your EPs however you want. I think that I will have to decline your offer for the 10-20 gpt plus gems for you to re-open your borders. I don't think that would be worth the benefit that we'd get from having OB with you.
As for us "initiating" the "plako problem", I don't know who talked to you and what they told you, but I'm not embarrassed about what we actually did (whether whoever told you the whole truth or put their own spin on it I don't know). I'm not sure why you are surprised - I thought I was pretty clear when we were talking a few weeks ago that I wasn't excited about you seizing twice the land of everyone else. So sure I talked to other players about that. I'd be surprised if I was the only one - it's my impression that these kinds of talks (about various players) go on all the time.
But having said that, I meant what I said when we first talked with you about this - I have no problem allying with a strong player - there are a lot of benefits there to someone that truly wants an alliance with equals. The impression I got from you guys when we talked was that you were more interested in just using the threat of your military to grab as much land as you could. Maybe that was not the impression you meant to give but that's how sunrise and I took it.
In any case, what's done is done. You are upset with us and so you've taken the actions to close borders and spend all your EPs against us. I'm not sure whether you mean them to be hostile, but it is prudent that we spend our gold and hammers on our military. If you do have hostile intentions, I think you will find it much harder to attack a foe with an up-to-date military.
As for the other part of your offer (regarding a NAP or other arrangement), we are interested in discussing it, if you have specific ideas. I worry that if we do not continue talks, that things will only escalate further, which I think is in neither of our best interests. I think we both would prefer some time to consolidate and grow our newer cities, do you agree?
Hope to hear from you soon
I'm not really that interested in a NAP with him at this point, but I wouldn't rule it out, depending on the specifics. Plus, I think it will be telling whether HE shows any interest in one
I definitely get why we don't want a NAP - he gains more by consolidating than we do. The flipside is he's so much more tactically ready for war than us. I'd be very interested to hear his ideas, if any, for NAP length.
I definitely get why we don't want a NAP - he gains more by consolidating than we do. The flipside is he's so much more tactically ready for war than us. I'd be very interested to hear his ideas, if any, for NAP length.
Yeah. The one thing that we have going for us is that his army (at least most of it) was eliminating WK's last city, which was way in the south. So it may be awhile before it can make its way back up to us, at which point we may be more tactically ready
regoarrarr Wrote:Lord Parkin built the church of the nativity, and he also founded Islam too, so he is going religion happy. Which is good I guess
Why is that good, and for whom?
There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, "This is new, and therefore better." - John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider
Quote:antisocialmunky: Fun by Compression Error
antisocialmunky: Hello?
me: hi
antisocialmunky: what's up?
me: not too much
antisocialmunky: you know who I am right
me: yes
:{)
antisocialmunky: and you're that Rego person
me: i am
antisocialmunky: glee
well I guess you could say I am here on business
me: haha
cool
i am at work right now
but generally i am open for business
antisocialmunky: can you talk civ?
me: yes
though i may be off and on if people come over or if i have to (gasp!) actually do work
antisocialmunky: ofcourse
I suppose our team is kinda split right now
you kinda ticked Rego off so he's not liking you at the moment
me: you mean plako?
antisocialmunky: um
yes
I'm dysllexic like that
me: ok
antisocialmunky: sorry lol
me: i mean i did tick myself off too
antisocialmunky: but yeah I dunno what your take on the last email exchange was
but yeah, plako isn't too happy
so nothing I say here is exactly official
me: okay
antisocialmunky: though it could be
me: the ol bad cop good cop routine
his last email seemed more pleasant
but yes the first email i could detect the annoyance
antisocialmunky: lol
zomg you've figured me out
but yeah, the tone of your border agreement stuff kinda rubbed him the wrong way
and the BS from LP at the same time I guess he just took it out on you
me: what did LP say?
antisocialmunky: confidential but lets just say he didn't deliver on goods and was hand waving
me: ah
antisocialmunky: excuses
me: well i guess the feeling was mutual on the border agreement there - like i said in my email i was very frustrated that it appeared that you wer just trying to use the threat of your military to land grab as much as posible
antisocialmunky: You be honest you did too
snipe those cities
but I suppose
we were run away
a bit
me: yeah
i mean it's one thing to talk about fair borders, but it's another thing when one of the folks has twice the land of the other
antisocialmunky: you have quite abit of land yourself
that you didn't have to fight for
me: well i have 9.5% i think
and am pretty much out of city sites
antisocialmunky: same
me: so i think i've got about 10% which is even
antisocialmunky: slightlym ore land though but its not the same type of land you have
me: btw i was very disappointed in your name of "Shanghai" for that front city
i was racking my brain all day once i saw on civstats that you had founded the city
for what would be a good acronym that you could use to express your annoyance with us
i had come up with KMA
as my guess
antisocialmunky: kickmya--
me: yeah
antisocialmunky: I dunno, to be honest
we're not planning much of anything
outside the whole
try not to get crunched by you and nakor or something unlikely like that
me: yeah
antisocialmunky: yeah
me: care to share who told you that i had expressed annoyancce with you guys and your lead?
antisocialmunky: it wouldn't have worked
but
I suppose that brings me to why I'm talking to you unofficially
LP
he's going nuts right now
me: nice
really?
antisocialmunky: well in the #1GNP
#1 production
sort of way
me: wait - LP told you or LP is the subject
(or both)
antisocialmunky: well
lets just say, that given the current situation, if you are #1, you'd want the other powers, especially one's neighbors to fight
me: agreed
antisocialmunky: but that's just me
me: i can definitely see how us fighting would benefit others, especially parkin
antisocialmunky: yes
I'm not sure if oyu have anything in the works
on him
me: geography makes it hard
antisocialmunky: He's racing for liberalism right now
btw
me: seems like locke should get that
antisocialmunky: yeah
but still
me: he's already got philo and i'd imaginei he's on edu now
antisocialmunky: locke?
or LP?
me: locke
lp has paper but not philo
antisocialmunky: do you know how much land LP has?
just out of curiosity?
me: no
he would not ob with us
antisocialmunky: he has more land than us
as in our team
me: you're still first on f8
antisocialmunky: LP is still setting I believe
he has some spots by our border
me: yeah
in his SE
antisocialmunky: but if he's not bigger, he's atleast comparable
me: agreed
there's a reason he's 100+ points ahead of even you
and it's not ALL wonders
antisocialmunky: without having to fight a single war
me: yup
i'm worried about him
but there's not a whole lot i can do about it
given the big sea between us
antisocialmunky: yeah
well
astronomy
Sirian doctrine
me: sure bu that's down the road
i meant in the nowish timeframe
if you're not attacking us, what are you doing with your nicely promoted WK army?
antisocialmunky: yeah I know, its frustrating
being bankrupt
me: lol
he doesn't have construction, machinery, hbr, archery or any military techs
antisocialmunky: we can't really push on him
me: oh
antisocialmunky: I mean
you've mapped out or border
its out of the way for us as most of our infrastructure is EW
he's like this insane choke point too
likewise we aren't going to throw our chance to win by taking LP on by ourselves
that's just how it is
me: sure i can understand that
any ideas of what you would like from us? I mean, the last time i tried to organize a "stop the leader" alliance, it got people angry with me :-D
antisocialmunky: well
it was more the border thing I think
and LP
and then the icing on the cake
which is the Nakor + You thing
that you may or may not have heard form us
me: i might have heard that maybe nakor was telling you i was trying to gun for you?
maybe?
antisocialmunky: heh
what's your take on the game they are going to play?
he's surrounded by 3 super powers
me: what game are they going to play?
antisocialmunky: yeah
they haven't talked to much about it
me: yeah i don't know about it
antisocialmunky: and since it seems you guys talked to them
I was hoping he could help with LP
since amphibious landings are kinda his civ's whole thing
and he isn't touching LP so we can prevent any sort of retalliation from the land
If he can raze a city or two
me: brb
Sent at 10:11 on Wednesday
antisocialmunky: I just logged in
lol @ the dmz
me: ?
antisocialmunky: well just a lot of picket units
me: north of the pigs area?
antisocialmunky: yeah just kinda amused me
me: heh
so going back to nakor's plan
it seems like berserkers on 3 move galleys would be pretty effective
especially if youc ould time it to hit 3-4 cities at once
did you see i think pbem6
where sevenspirits hit someone with early astro and razed cities with galleons
like 3-4 on the first turn of the war
antisocialmunky: um
that wasn't that game with Cyneheard was it?
me: no i think that was pbem10
antisocialmunky: I don't follow pbem6
maybe I'm just a drama magnet
me: me either- i just read up on it a week or so ago
i think it just ended
antisocialmunky: yeah
maybe
I dunno, lol
but yeah, Nakor
I think we can prepare for some sort of Rifle stomp against LP
maybe
I dunno, actually playing civ is my weakness lol
but if Nakor is willing, we can force some units out of LP
and some tech
slow him down atleast
still busy?
me: sort of
why do you want to wait till rifles?
at the current pace by the time you get rifles he'll have MGs or infantry
antisocialmunky: well what do you propose?
me: what about berserkers on 3 move galleys?
antisocialmunky: I like that
we were thing about something similar
Can you help to get that put together? I think Nakor/Gaspar don't like us very much.
so it may be better to come from you
me: i thought they were the ones that sold us out to you?
antisocialmunky: maybe
me:
antisocialmunky: well, feudalism
that's a lot of turns
me: oh you got our research?
antisocialmunky: Nakor
he sold you out
that's where all our info comes form
me: yeah that's kind of what i figured
antisocialmunky: but yeah, we got your research
me: which makes me quite angry, as THEY were the ones who approached US about military cooperation
whateva
antisocialmunky: um
that was a joke
me: oh
i'm still kind of annoyed at them
antisocialmunky: well
I think everyone but maybe locke is
lol
me: but my sarcas-o-meter must be nbroken
antisocialmunky: Don't worry, Nakor didn't sell you out
me: lets see who else hates us
hmmm
antisocialmunky: form this PB
or all the PBs
could be quite hte list
me: well exploit isn't playing, right?
antisocialmunky: He may have been one of Warlord's subs or something
Warlord was playing CTON so who knows
me: yeah that was weird
antisocialmunky: saw Metallian play for him
be sure to goto
our thread
and reach his chats
they were hilarious
well
after LP wins the game
lol
not right now
me: so i don't think i can approach nakor about this
do you even really want me involved?
i'd think it would just be one more 'loose end"
to risk it getting out to LP or someoen else
antisocialmunky: the thing is
everyone who we've approached about LP
or border tensions with you
replied to us that we should focus on LP
me: yeah locke is big on LP
antisocialmunky: so I don't think cooperation is a choice at this point
me: "the LP problem"
antisocialmunky: he was big on us, atleast he's consistent
me: he just wants everyone to be big on everyone else
so we don't worry aout HIM! :-D (locke)
antisocialmunky: we can worry about him after LP
really that why I'm talking to you unofficially
because well, I want to win the game
and LP is winning right now so I and anyone else who wants to win really need to put aside our differences
and figure something out
I think figuring out our NAP/border situation would be helpful to that
and then if we can talk to Nakor about being viking
me: ok
antisocialmunky: I don't know if you feel like that would be favorable to your aims
getting the border thing resolved atleast
me: well like i said in the email
neither of us want to be fighting now
i'd prefer some time to consolidate
antisocialmunky: we do too
WK turtled quite well
he made quite hte last stand
I dunno what you guys did to him but he seemed quite cross with you
me: yeah
it was him wasn't it
that sold us out
antisocialmunky: well
he said quite abit
though
we asked for map
but then we killed him
after a few turns
didn't respond
sorry I can't be more helpful
me: that's ok
antisocialmunky: maybe if we get something ironed out
I'm only a dedicated lurker person
me: so what would be "ironed out"?
antisocialmunky: well we both need time to consolidate
you have lots of new cities, we have WK's land
we can't afford to build up
against each other
me: i agree
i don't really want to fight you right now
antisocialmunky: do you think OB and that would be worth some happy resources?
OB and peace of mind
me: well at this point OB doesn't really gain us much
we have full trade routes currently
antisocialmunky: well yeah
well what do you propose
to resolve this situation
?
me: hmm
antisocialmunky: since this is unofficial
me: hold on - i'm in a mtg right now
Sent at 11:11 on Wednesday
antisocialmunky: had a tornado warning
nothing happened
Sent at 13:15 on Wednesday
me: are you in kansas?
antisocialmunky: yes
its not black and white though
so I odn't know
me: i was just watching the news and it mentioned a tornado in kansas city
antisocialmunky: I think it was a few miles away form me
:]
I don't think there's anything big
like you see in documentaries
probably something tiny
me: my son is way into tornadoes
antisocialmunky: you may want to rephrase that when your wife is around
lol
Sent at 13:23 on Wednesday
antisocialmunky: btw
it seems like you're not the only guys who are thinking about the nakor vikings -> LP
me: oh yeah?
who else
antisocialmunky: luddite
approves it seems
though he doesn't want to initiate it himself or anything
your kid doesn't storm chase or anything does he?
me: in his dreams
he's only 9
but he totallyw ants to
Sent at 13:30 on Wednesday
me: nakor already can make berserkers, right?
antisocialmunky: no idea
thought you knew
me: i believe so
he has alpha so either of us should be able to check
Sent at 13:36 on Wednesday
antisocialmunky: do any ideas on getting the NAP between you and us reinstated?
*so
Sent at 13:40 on Wednesday
me: so what are you going to do if we reinstate our nap?
just consolidate? any active fighting vs. lp?
antisocialmunky: well directly?
its better than fighting each other
and worrying about it
Sent at 13:44 on Wednesday
me: what do you mean?
antisocialmunky: I mean, its better than worrying about each other
I don't really like having to keep a garrisoned border in the east
me: right
antisocialmunky: and when we do decide to fight LP, we can have a better basis for cooperation
Sent at 13:48 on Wednesday
me: well last time we talekd you were suggesting that we'd have to "pay" in gems or gpt to get a nap
i don't think we're interested in that
Sent at 13:53 on Wednesday
antisocialmunky: I think the NAP
since that benefits both of us
we'd be willing to sign one
for like 20/30 turns iwth option to negotiate
at the end
give us both time to consolidate
me: okay
i can take that back to sunrise
and see what he has to say
if that works for you
antisocialmunky: Plako seems to really not like opening borders :\
me: xenophobe
;-)
antisocialmunky: might do it for a favorable resource agreement
yeah I know lol
me: ok
antisocialmunky: LP's the problem at this point
me: sure
antisocialmunky: the thing is that LP stole our gems
me: but i'm not sure how us just signing a nap helps us with that
oh really?
culturally?
antisocialmunky: because Krill put it closer to him
me: or land-grab-ily
antisocialmunky: on his side of a choke point
me: oh
antisocialmunky: well we were going east/west
and the gems location is like a three way between us, Nakor, and LP
to our north, closer to LP
and Nakor
lol
me: yeah i think i know where they are
antisocialmunky: there's more than one around there
me: to your northeast / LP's SE?
oh
antisocialmunky: NW of us
LP put down a city fairly early
kinda locked the area
wait
don't you have some dyes?
me: they aren't hooked up
antisocialmunky: like 3 of them?
:\
me: but they could be
antisocialmunky: yeah, if oyu can hook those up, do you think we could set up a dyes trade?
me: sure
antisocialmunky: for OB
me: anything's on the table
antisocialmunky: yeah unofficial
me: well at this point OB doesn't get us anything
are you getting a lot of WW or whip unhappies?
antisocialmunky: um
me: i'm surprised you're so hurt for happy
antisocialmunky: we have like
a single spice
and a sugar
because Krill
Act of Krill
me: well you've got gold an silver too
furs / ivory?
antisocialmunky: jsut a beaver
that is it
3 happy resources
screw you krill
me: no gold or silver?
really?
antisocialmunky: we have those
me: in all of your and wk's lands?
antisocialmunky: but compared to gems + ivory + whatever
its kinda iritating
me: yeah
antisocialmunky: are oyu sure you don't want OB?
me: krill would probably tell you you didn't expand fast enough :-D
antisocialmunky: we have some pretty big cities
good trade routes
be bigger with dyes
Sent at 14:10 on Wednesday
me: well it's not that i DON'T want OB, but i guess it's just that i would prefer that and a NAP to be more part of an overall plan / idea
i understand we may need to take some baby steps here to "repair" our relationship
but it was YOU guys that canceled the OBs after all ;-)
antisocialmunky: To be honest, I don't know if you are doing on purpose but you guys never seem to state what you want. So I guess I'll ask oyu. What is your overall vision?
me: hmm
that's a good question
antisocialmunky: actually plako just popped online
seems to like the NAP idea.
but anyway, how do you envision the game proceeding atleast until LP is dealt with?
Sent at 14:16 on Wednesday
me: well it sounds like we both / all think LP is a problem
but nobody wants to deal with it
antisocialmunky: we can't deal with it alone
me: frankly that's the same problem we had earlier tryign to deal with you ;-)
antisocialmunky: well
me: everyone wants someone else to deal with it
antisocialmunky: a plan is in the works
lets just say that
me: ok
that's probably all i want to know anyways
since at least pre-astro there's not a whole lot i can actively do
antisocialmunky: hmmm
if you trade Galleons
to a civ iwth circumnav
how does the extra movement work?
me: you mean galleys?
like if i gave you a galley?
antisocialmunky: any boat
me: if i gave you a galley, it would get 3 movement
antisocialmunky: okay
me: just like if you gave me a chokonu it wouldn't convert to a xbow
so are you saying that, as part of this plan, that you want some security that i will not attack you until the plan is underway?
antisocialmunky: something like that
maybe get your help
me: what kidn of help are you thinking i could provide?
antisocialmunky: well hypothetically speaking
boats?
me: hmm
antisocialmunky: for logistical support
LP won't be able to out build multiple factions in navy
if a war comes
your tech rate frankly isn't great
you know
me: i do know
antisocialmunky: we've been trying to guess why you guys have been doing
thought you would be more powerful with all those trade routes :\
me: i think we really screwed up / delayed our expansion with building glh that early
and have been playing catch up ever since
not all of us were able to get a city gifted to us in like 2000 bc :-/
antisocialmunky: not all of use started next to a CTON MP guy
*us
me: yeah
antisocialmunky: and get cursed at when he does feel like talking lol
seriously, we have some funny convos
me: yeah it will be a fun read when the time comes, i'm sure
so do you think 20-30t will be enough?
antisocialmunky: I don't know
me: just want to make sure i'm taking the rightt proposal back to sunrise
antisocialmunky: this is getting complex
me:
antisocialmunky: I have no idea how kathlete pulled his COW off
seriously
me: well like i said
i think there have been 3 attempts to rally people against you
in this game
by various people
none have worked
antisocialmunky: wiat
Locke
You
who else?
me: hmm maybe there were only 2
antisocialmunky: ...
If I tell you who sold you out, would you tell me who organized #3?
me: i would
but i really can't think of anyone else
so there may have been only 2
maybe i tried it twice :-D
antisocialmunky: lol
well
WK ironically tipped us off to many things
I think
a 20/30 turn NAP to start will be enough
we are working on a plan
but
its hard figuring out what everyone has to do
too many people
me: i think you're best off just getting 2 people
you and nakor
maybe locke
the more people too many
the man doesn't have hbr, doesn't have archery, doesn't have construction, doesn't have feudalism
antisocialmunky: yeah
me: put say 6 berserkers on 3 galleys
boom
that should be doable in like 10t
antisocialmunky: yeah
me: hypothetically speaking :-D
antisocialmunky: that would be a good prelude
me: do you think you could pull off more?
antisocialmunky: I'm just saying
maybe
anyway
yeah I guess 30 turn NAP
and can you hook us up with some happy?
potential part in a kill LP thing
give that to sunrise, sleep on it
I'll talk to plako
me: ok
Put in spoiler tags for your simple brains.
Some gists:
1) They want a NAP, 20-30t
2) There are some plans to attack Lord Parkin. I didn't try to press for too many details. I actually felt kind of bad about it and didn't really want to know too much about it, probably because I'm a jerk
3) They would like a happy resource (gems / dyes), in exchange for re-opening OB. They also complained that krill screwed them on happy resources.
4) maybe something else?
Another interesting thing is that Nakor just emailed wanting to know what's going on.
Quote:I got the contents of your chat with ASM. I've redirected our EPs for this turn since he seemed to agree on that. You talked about NAP for 30T. I would prefer much longer time e.g. something like T215. This would give us real chance to develop our nations in peace and recover our relationship.
Concerning OB and EP allocation deal my opinion is the same as in my previous message. NAP negotiation doesn't need to be connected to OB/EP discussion although in reality having a NAP probably affects to the way I allocate my EPs. These issues can be handled together or separately as you like.
To satisfy the "no more boring diplo" lurkers, here's a turn report for T151.
We are up to #3 in soldiers, 352K to plako's 482K. We have 4 swords and 1 axe completing next turn
We're also up to +158gpt @ breakeven. Economically, we have 2 harbors and 1 market completing next turn, which should by themselves add 12-15gpt.
We're up to 16 harbors for our 24 cities. So 2 more next turn makes 18 and 2 of our cities are inland, so we have 4 left to build, mostly in new cities that are still making their way through granaries. Go expansive GLH builders!
