Exploits?

[Zeroth Amendment]

The more that I think about it, I think here's the fundamental problem: researching a tech (like Masonry) can block a strategic option. This should never happen -- you should never be penalized for researching a technology.

Ever research Scientific Method?

[T-hawk]

Ever research Scientific Method?

Not if I can avoid it. I can accept monasteries going obsolete for research and culture, but the permanent lock-out of training more missionaries except for the monasteries you just happened to have in place already is a design miss IMO.

[Dreylin]

Ever research Scientific Method?

Not if I can avoid it. I can accept monasteries going obsolete for research and culture, but the permanent lock-out of training more missionaries except for the monasteries you just happened to have in place already is a design miss IMO.

Unless I'm mistaken, you can still use OrgRel to train Missionaries wherever you want, even after SciMeth...

[Sirian]

But without leverage, a one-time payoff of 1000 to 1500 beakers just isn't worth much.

I'm not so sure. If it's for a tech you'd research anyway, it may bring not only this tech X beakers faster, but every other tech to hit the board for you also comes X beakers faster. Speed opens up all sorts of possibilities, including faster ability to attack, access to wonders (not just now), and faster access to new units, buildings, Civics or abilities. Even in the case of tech trading, there are some limits on that, so even without a direct leveraging, there could be major payout.

I figure that I probably use leaders for research boosts more often than most other players. Lightbulbing is one sure reliable use for leaders, although in some cases you need to wait to get past a dud option (like researching Meditation, a tech worth a very sad number of beakers).


I agree with your pithy anyalysis, though. The problem with the current system is that you are penalized for researching techs in some cases, which simply should not happen.


- Sirian

[Zeroth Amendment]

Calendar
Scientific Method
Corporation
Astronomy

I frequently find myself avoiding those techs, because of the penalties associated with them. I mean, you can say you shouldn't be penalized for researching techs, but that is certainly not the way the game was designed.

[pholkhero]

Calendar
Scientific Method
Corporation
Astronomy

I frequently find myself avoiding those techs, because of the penalties associated with them. I mean, you can say you shouldn't be penalized for researching techs, but that is certainly not the way the game was designed.

however, the effects associated with these techs are not technically penalties ~ they're the nullification of benefits (if you talking about ending Stonehenge, loss of monasteries, etc) which is not the same.

I don't understand fully the way the GPs lightbulb techs, but i like it better that way. I just see what i can get with the tech. The most i'd do is, say, if a Priest could discover Meditation, then i'll research it myself to see what comes up next.

[T-hawk]

I'm not so sure. If it's for a tech you'd research anyway, it may bring not only this tech X beakers faster, but every other tech to hit the board for you also comes X beakers faster.

Up to a point. Eventually, the investment options will catch up, having supplied an extra X beakers in total and continuing to provide more. Of course, the payback horizon is different for different leaders and circumstances. An Academy can generate 1500 beakers in fifty turns or less (Bureaucracy helps); a religious shrine might pay back virtual beakers by allowing a higher research rate for 100 turns or so (banks help); for a Great Artist when you don't need a Great Work, the cash payback horizon from settling him is likely to be past the end of the game so you might as well just lightbulb something.

Unless I'm mistaken, you can still use OrgRel to train Missionaries wherever you want, even after SciMeth...

Indeed, which at least makes monastery obsolescence a mid-sized inconvenience rather than a potential brick wall in front of the player's game plan.

[Zeviz]

It seems to me that most of the time the top players seem to think that unless you are either founding a religon, or performing some sort of 'slingshot', then using a great person on a tech, instead of any of the other options is usually a suboptimal choice. Do others agree with this assessment?

I think the use of Great People depends on the type of game you are playing. If you are going for a fast military victory, or are trying to save a ruined economy, you need the immediate benefits, because there might not be a long run. If you are going for a space launch, you need to think about the long-term benefits: Winning the Liberalism race and grabbing an economic tech that much earlier would be justified. Most other benefits wouldn't. There is a similar tradeoff in chopping forests vs. saving them for lumbermills.

Ever research Scientific Method?

I find it ironic that Scientific Method actually decreases your research rate. (If there are several monasteries in each research center, the decrease is very noticeable.)

We not only need an explanation, but also a handy reference on all the possible "gain something from NOT researching a certain tech" pathways.

How should this reference be structured? It could be a table of "techs to avoid if you don't want certain other techs" or simply a list of "techs to avoid to execute most common slingshots". Or it might be something completely different.

For the first one it would be something like:
Prophet - to avoid Monotheism/Theology – skip Masonry
Prophet - to avoid Divine Right - skip Monarchy or Masonry

For the second one, it would look like this:
Prophet - CoL - skip Masonry - research Polytheism
Prophet - CS slingshot - skip Masonry - research/lighbulb CoL, Polytheism

[Blake]

The problem I have with Masonry is that I'm responsible for Masonry being added as a prereq to Monotheism. I personally caused the side effects on Great Prophets that this has introduced, which were not part of Soren's original intent for Prophets, and certainly not my intent. (Masonry as prereq fixed the problem it was aimed at fixing, which was bigger than this issue, but opened up this new problem. From a game design perspective, I cannot help but feel a compelling urge to clean up a mess I made here! And yes, it IS a mess other views notwithstanding. )

Having considered this quite carefully my views on GP slingshots have softened. When I examined the game where Masonry is part of the GP lightbulb path it seems in many ways more balanced.
At the moment the Prophet is one of the "Perfect" GP's, the other being the easily generated great Scientist which yields the most beakers per lightbulb. What makes the GProphet so ideal is it is easily generated (by the oracle/henge, no less) and yields some of the most useful techs, Code of Laws, Civil Service and Monarchy. You would be hard-pressed to find a tech more useful than CS, other than possibly Philosophy which is also a Prophet/GS option.

With less useful Prophet, other GP's have more oppurtunity to shine, in particular Merchants generated under Caste System - less uber prophets make Caste System more desirable to run (and I think it's one of the least used civics, along with serfdom). A fast engineer from an early forge may also be more useful. I think artists get easily distracted by the shininess of religious techs, but even they may be good for something (generated under Caste).

So masonry being added to the Prophet shiny-techs list is an idea I'm at least willing to entertain.

[uberfish]

The other tech avoidance point I can think of (and it's very obscure) is - If you want to research paper with a GS you need to be missing either machinery or compass I think it is, otherwise you get offered optics instead.

My preferred solution to Masonry being crap would be to move Slavery civic there instead, unfortunately this would probably be deviating too far from the base game.

Blake - It's not that the techs offered by artists/merchants/engineers are overshadowed by the prophet ones. You just don't see much lightbulb action from them because their enabling buildings are 2 tiers deeper into the tech tree than libraries or temples, and they offer a second instant-payoff ability - culture/cash/wonder bombs - which is usually what the player spawned the GP for.