[SPOILERS] Emissaries from the blighted lands; Mardoc and Jkaen take on the world!

[Mardoc]

You know the drill.

[Mardoc]

So, I was going to wait until we knew our civ choices, to come up with a themed thread title, but then Gaspar cruelly extorted me to hurry up:

hey - fwiw, if you want me dedlurk you and jkaen, it might be handy if you had a thread I could weigh in on the civ choices with. Otherwise that darrell/Ilios thread looks mighty tempting.

So, on to civ choice thoughts.

We think we need a financial techer backbone civ, and an attack dog nasty aggressor civ.

Well, our original plan was Kurio/Hippus; that would match preferred tech paths, the Kurios would stay back and shoot for wonders and research while the Hippus went out and conquered. Then the first pick was Kurio.

What still makes sense? Well, Rhoanna of the Hippus is still one of the very strongest civs in the game. Flauros would still be very strong. We'd pair either of them with a techer like Lanun or Khazad.

Or, well, all-elves all the time - Ljo/Svart. This leaves us vulnerable in the early going.

Maybe Sheaim and a techer? PZ's are awesome, awesome, awesome; add in someone who can actually get them to the Gate units and up the magic line?

Right now, I'm leaning Hippus, because honestly Fin/Exp Rhoanna can fill either the attack dog or the techer role, leaving us a lot of flexibility in what we take as the pick comes back up the line. Any thoughts?

[Mardoc]

Some more civs that are strong in isolation, but don't seem to really connect with anyone:

The Malakim: Lots of little bonuses, Spiritual for handy civic swaps and Priests, Adaptive for Financial (or maybe something else). But they're an all-rounder, not a dramatic advantage in one spot and a crippling disadvantage that civ2 could compensate for.

The Balseraphs: Similar. Although, especially if played as Keelyn, they have a pronounced Magic line focus. As good as the Sheaim? Probably not quite. (they don't set their axemen on fire). They could be handy, though. Might very well work.

The Luchiurp: Still have the trouble of keeping Barnaxus alive. Still a late-bloomer. Golems on the battlefield don't really fit with non-golems on the battlefield. On the other hand, they're Financial, so could possibly fill a backlines role.

[Gaspar]

I think Rhoanna is very strong here, but I question the "attack dog Civ" role. What you'd ideally want is two strong commerce civs (1 to tech, 1 to feed gold) and then two Civs that have militarys that compliment each other. To me, the best possible combo is Flauros/Hannah. Mostly because Lanun don't care what tech path they take and Calabim need to take an odd path, so nobody else dovetails with them quite as well. I think you need to think out the whole plan before you pick though, so a bit of metagaming might be necessary. Between your two picks you're going to have 4 civs off the table - Thoth/Mr. Yellow's picks and darrell/Ilios. So let's look at two factors. First, which are the best 6 civs/Leaders left for a game like this?

1. Flauros/Decius of Calabim. This is maybe the one game I could see an argument for Decius, if you back him up with a strong Fin teammate. Raiders is incredibly potent, but vamps come along late enough you could just feast them into commando if you really wanted that, so you're still better off with Flauros. I think everyone can see what the vamps can do when played right in PBEM2, and I think the "target" factor is minimized in game like this. Nobody is likely to take a pure rush civ, plus you have a partner who can help protect you in the build-up. For my money, Calabim are still the strongest civilization in FFH, so little to lose in taking them. The downside, as said above, is they have little synergy with a potential partner.

2. Hannah of Lanun. I know that the Lanun are a bit overrated by newer players - sure they tech ridiculously fast, but their production is garbage without slavery or a map designed to get the most out of them intentionally, and their military has to come from religion, because the rest of their stuff is terrible. But still, nobody can match them pound-for-pound in tech, and you can have the partner produce most of the military. They make an excellent support Civ for the real teeth in the arrangement.

3. Varn Gosam of the Malakim. Its funny that Malakim don't get rated a top civ, despite being a dominant power both times we've seen them here. Adaptive leaders are fantastic, and Varn is the best of them, as his "core" trait is top-tier in FFH, and his off-trait is exactly the one you want in the early game. Creative to push out borders and focus on expansion, Financial mid-game for tech, then something like Raiders/Charismatic/Summoner/Organized for the late game military push. Add to that an incredibly powerful world-spell and they make a quite versatile partner. Cassiel doesn't get a vote in this poll from me because 1. IND is a crappy trait to have for the first 70 turn - there's no chance of getting Forges up that fast without a beeline and the only wonders you could conceivably build are Heron Throne and Bone Palace, and Agnostic really sucks, religion is too powerful in FFH.

4. Rhoanna of Hippus. The reason I don't rate Rhoanna as high as the other three is why I like her so much in a non-team game - she does everything well, nothing great. Her traits are perfect for the "techer" but her Civ is designed to be the muscle. Nothing about the Hippus favors tech, except Rhoanna, and for muscle, there are better picks. Still, she's a well-rounded partner.

The last spots are filled with a lot of maybes, so I think all 4 of the above will be off the board before you pick again.

Teching candidates:
Kandros Fir of the Khazad has some potential in a game like this, a partner could help you get those vaults overflowing, and then you've got all those great Vault benefits. The problem is that the Khazad strengths best manifest themselves in a mid-game rush, otherwise they just have a lot of cute toys without a real quality plan.
Beeri Bawl of the Luchuirp has similar potential, but they also suffer from slow Dwarven troops and the fairly unique desired tech path which basically cuts them off from teaming with anyone well, save maybe the Khazad.

Specialist candidates:
Tebryn Arbandi of Sheaim is a solid magic choice, with Flaming zombies to help them get there. The problem is they have nothing economic whatsoever, so anything short of pairing them with Lanun is going to leave them woefully behind the other Civs.
Keelyn of Balseraphs is probably for my money the best magic user - Puppets are ridiculously strong. Keelyn plus death mana means double the skeleton spam if they hit you early, double the spectre spam later on, not to mention other possibilities, particularly if they were to go Esus and Gibbon. Can compensate economically by driving the happy cap northward by all the Balseraph toys. Downside is she requires discipline from the player, because Bals have so very many toys.
Capria/Sabathiel of Bannor. Bannor could well be a decent option in a game like this. Crusade's downside is irrelevant in AW, and they'll necessarily tech well midgame since you're cottaging everything for all the military. They have a lot of neat war toys, and if you can either go Veil for collateral, or pair them with a strong early game techer who has some later game toys, they could be deadly. Downside - they're a one trick pony and everyone wants to kill you before you can Crusade.

That's a gigantic wall of text for a game I'm not playing. If I were you I'd take Flauros or Hannah though. Even if he's tough to find a partner, Calabim are the most beastly civ in the game. And Hannah could be anybody's partner and do it fabulously well. I'll sit back and resume just being a sounding board and stop acting like I'm playing from here on out, though.

[Mardoc]

You know, the more I think on it, the more I think Gaspar's got a point, and we should go with Lanun next. Because yes, they have no strengths except GNP, so they're happy (after Fishing) to go in whatever direction the other civ wants to go. They'd go well with any of Calabim, Balseraph, Sheaim, Malakim, Hippus - we're bound to have at least one of those left over. Financial is still as good as any other Financial, their workers aren't gimped, and I don't think we've got a heavy flavor map in store, so they're not starting in Jungle, either. So although they love the ocean, they can set up some strong commerce cities inland, too.

And it's already been specifically requested that there be water for the Lanun and trees for the elves, etc, so we wouldn't have to worry about that lack.

Basically the same line of thought as Kurios - they play well with others. And since we're 2nd to pick, we can't count on as much synergy as we'd like, so we should pick them first.

[Jkaen]

While I can see the argument for Lanun, I do expect them to be somewhat nerfed this game, as I expect it to be water light, so maybe 1 cove per city.

That said they are still a financial civ on land, and do offer an obvious land split arrangement with the partner.

The vampires however have the financial advantage too and the power of vampires, its just as you mentioned they have an odd techpath... or do they? I haven't got a copy of the manual on this PC, but they do have a second option into vamps, is that any more user friendly?

[Selrahc]

The vampires however have the financial advantage too and the power of vampires, its just as you mentioned they have an odd techpath... or do they? I haven't got a copy of the manual on this PC, but they do have a second option into vamps, is that any more user friendly?

Losha Valas at Fanatacism.

And I suppose technically, Brujah or Vampire Lords don't require regular vampires either, but it would be a very odd game that you'd research to Rage or Divine Essence before picking up Feudalism.

[Jkaen]

Ok, just loaded up a game to the choose civ screen, and unless I am missing something:

Moroi (axeman) - Vampire (Champion) = Wood Golem (axeman) - Iron Golem (Champion)

Or am I missing some other tech needed to open vampires. If not thats 2 financial civs with similar tech lines

[Selrahc]

Ok, just loaded up a game to the choose civ screen, and unless I am missing something:

Moroi (axeman) - Vampire (Champion) = Wood Golem (axeman) - Iron Golem (Champion)

Or am I missing some other tech needed to open vampires. If not thats 2 financial civs with similar tech lines

Vampires are unlocked at Feudalism rather than Iron Working.

And Wood Golems are unlocked at Construction rather than Bronze Working.

[Mardoc]

Yes, Vampires want to go to Feudalism as fast as possible, stopping only for necessary econ techs. And since they have so many uses for food, they want straight aristofarms, not anything cottaged at all.

On the other hand - well, once we make it there, we can back off and get some other units. I'm pretty sure it's really only Feudalism that Vamps want that other civs usually skip for a while. It's tricky to handle divergent techpaths, but if we take two Financial civs, we ought to be able to manage it.

I would prefer to go with a partner civ with living units so we can make the promoted ones vampires too; maybe Malakim would fit in well, since we'll likely want to stop at Priesthood for collateral anyway. But that's a debate that can and should wait until we know what everyone else is doing.

So all in all I'm ok with going Flauros now. There's still the chance we can make synergy, although reduced from Lanun, but this way guarantees us a strong pick.