Losing is Fun: Kandros Fir Dwarf Fortress [Khazad Spoiler Thread]

[Ichabod]

[SIZE="3"]Future Plans[/SIZE]
(or "where do we go from here?")


This post will talk about the paths in which I plan to take the next steps of the game. As you can notice while reading my previous posts, I change my mind a lot, even regarding some key game issues (going from "kill Kurios" to "Kurios are my best friends" - the wrong GPP needed post and so on), but that doesn't mean plans are useless. If you have a plan, you have some kind of parameter to compare your changes of mind, so you can know what are you gaining and losing with the changes.

In a shorter way to say it, it's very likely that I'll change my min about this. These plans aren't written in stone or anything.

So, we are going to start with a "how do I plan to win this game?" section. After that, there'll be sections related to more specific subjects. Let's start, then.


[SIZE="2"]1. How do I plan to win this game?[/SIZE]


I wish I knew .

As much as the above comment seems like a joke, it surely shows one of the worst problem while playing the Khazad. It seems that the dwarves weren't made to win the game. "Why?", you ask. Well, first let's remind ourselves of the ways in which we can get a victory in FfH:

• Domination
  
• Conquest
  
• Tower of Mastery
  
• Altar of Luonnatar
  
• Culture
  
• Religious Victory
  

So, let's talk a bit about each of this conditions and how the Khazad fail at getting them.

Tower of Mastery is the big NO of the Khazad. The Khazad are the worst magic users of the whole game. They can't get mages and archmages, that means only level 1 spells if you don't have a religious archmage. They barely benefit at all from going down the arcane line, which is needed for the tower victory. And they can't even get the metamagic lvl2 spell - if not for a religious archmage), which can convert already used mana nodes to the default ones (a must for Tower of Mastery victory). It's not impossible, but is certainly not doable on multiplayer, unless I already won the game by domination or conquest anyway.

The Altar victory suffers from a similar problem. The dwarves aren't that good in generating great people and they don't benefit that much from the religious line. The fact that the last parts of the altar require the arcane line top technologies makes it even worst. In a few words, too much tech, too few gains, the same as the Tower victory.

Religious Victory is impossible in multiplayer, unless I've already won by conqust/domination. Period.

Cultural victory might be possible, seeing as the Khazad can get some very productive cities. But to be sincere, I don't know much about FfH cultural victories and I don't see myself going for one. It won't be an option for now, maybe if the situation changes.

Conquest/Domination are almost the same thing. This is probably the way that I'll be heading in this game. The late game Khazad can sure have a very powerful army, even without magic and with bad mobility. The problem is (yes, there's always a problem with the Khazad) that Dwarven Vaults are like an anti-domination victory. Each city you add to the empire is more likely to make all the others less productive. That's really annoying and makes expansion something not as obvious as it normally is in civilization. Of course, dwarven vaults won't be that much of a problem if I have a powerful empire, but it's a problem to overcome, nonetheless. So, maybe going for a conquest victory, only keeping a core of highly productive cities could be better. Of course, talking about it is always the easiest part.

I can hope fore a winner declaration victory too, if the other players nominate myself the victor after I have a sufficient powerful empire. Any resilient opponents would make this less feasible, but it's not that impossible to happen. It's a perfect type of victory for a civilization that can get itself into a winning position, but can't manage to actually win the game.

That being said, my actual victory condition is still unknown. I'll probably have to annex one neighboor or two to put myself in a winning position, regardless of which condition I choose, so that's what I'll be looking (and planning) for in the next turns.


[SIZE="2"]2. Technology[/SIZE]


In the technology department, I have selected a few goals to reach, both short and long term. These goals will be the decisive factor behind my choices. I'll present them to you, so you can decide if you agree with the goals and if you agree with the way I plan to reach these goals. The ultimate goal of all the plan is to get a good economy that can make expansion a good thing, regardless of the terrain that I expand into.

a. Short term Goals:

• Happy Cap
  
• Capital Growth
  
• Exploration of the Map
  
• Religion
  

b. Long Term Goals

• Food Issue Solution
  
• Bad Terrain Issue Solution
  
• Economy
  
• Culture Issue Solution
  

Desired Tech Path:

1. Finish Festivals
   
   Why? Financial Markets and Carnival (albeit unlikely that I'll be building those in the near future - Edit: Carnivals, I mean. The markets will be finished as soon as possible)
   
   Helps with? Economy
   
   
   
2. Hunting
   
   Why? Hunting is a very expensive tech (i'll need 10/11 turns to complete it) and it kind of get away from the usual dwarven tech path. But the benefits will be big. First of all, I have 2 hunting resources already in my civ borders (deer and furs) and I'll probably have Ivory in my borders too. Hunting loses value a lot of games due to the player not having the resources near. That's not the case.
   
   The deer is actually in Boatmurdered's BFC. It can give a good boost to the very low food surplus of the capital (from 5 to 7). This goes hand in hand with the plan of building a Hunting Lodge in the capital. The fur happiness will be doubled and the deer health will be doubled with it, so Boatmurdered can grow to size 7 (probably working deer/wheat/4 cottages/plains hill mine to get increased production and fast settlers). And we'll be able to build hunters and the very, very important hawks. The hawks, which are very cheap, will finally let me map my surroundings properly. The hunters, which will have subdue animal from the get go (agressive + apprenticeship) will add a very good hapiness and culture boost in the form of animals. If i get enough bears, the culture issue will be solved for a long time (bears don't require carnivals to be settled) and further animals will increase the overall happy cap.
   
   So, Hunting gives a lot of benefits and I feel it's the right time to use them. It'll delay the religion, of course, but that's why I signed the non compete agreements. A more developed capital will help me with meeting the RoK spread deadline I have with the other players too.
   
   Helps with? Capital Growth, Exploration of the Map, Happy Cap, Culture Issue Solution.
   
   
   
3. Mining -> Way of the Earthmother
   
   Why? Well, I need to get the religion sometime. It seems like the appropriate time. It'll give gold bonuses and a happy cap increase (better with the religion civic).
   
   Helps with? Economy, Religion, Happy Cap
   
   
   
4. Cartography
   
   Why? The real reasoning behind teching cartography is to be able to keep my deals with the other players (the religion spread ones). If I manage some trade routes and possible resource deals, that's even better. Maybe some map trades could be in order too.
   
   Helps with? Economy (possibly), Exploration of the Map (possibly).
   
   
   
5. Code of Laws
   
   Why? Yes, I was obliged to fold. I'll be using Aristocracy in this game. Of course, it won't be used as early as normal and it won't be the obvious solution, but it'll be used, nonetheless. The thing is, if I can grow my cities with my improved happy cap, I need to work tiles with at least 2 food. 2f/1h/c farms aren't the things I'm looking for when I think about growing, so i need better tiles. Agrarianism + Aristocracy will give me 2/0/4 tiles and that's good enough (remember that commerce is extra important in this particular game). I'll be able to grow on this farms while still getting better economically.
   
   As you can see, the technology after Code of Laws will be the very expensive Drama. I'll need a better economy to get it in a decent amount of time and Aristocracy is the way to do it.
   
   Helps with? Economy, Food Issue (will need sanitation to really solve this).
   
   
   
6. Drama
   
   Why? Why would I tech 1 tech for a certain amount of beakers if I can tech 2 techs for less beakers? That's the logic behind behind going Drama and bulbing Sanitation with the free Great Bard. Drama will also definitely solve the cultural issue, since I'll be able to build culture. NOTE: If someone else gets the Great Artist, I'll skip this.
   
   Helps with? Economy and Food Issue (indirectly), Culture Issue Solution.
   
   
   
7. Bronze Working
   
   Why? Prerequisite to Sanitation, it's faster then getting Masonry and Construction, albeit less useful. Bronze Warriors will be helpful, though.
   
   Helps with? Economy and Food Issues (indirectly).
   
   
   
8. Bulb Sanitation
   
   Why? Sanitation gives +1 food to farms. This is the KEY tech in this map. I'll be able to build 3/0/3 farms or 3/1/0 farms, finally giving me a spammable food improvement. Food issues will be definetely solved and the economy will prosper. Getting sanitation early will make me jump ahead in demographics against every player that doesn't do the same. I really hope that my opponents don't realize the value of sanitation and go for other techs.
   
   Helps with? Food Issues and Economy.
   
   
   
9. [COLOR="Cyan"]Masonry -> Construction
   [/COLOR]
   Why? Being able to build the scary trebuchets is certainly a nice prize, but the true reason behind getting construction is chain irrigation. Spam farms everywhere will be the selected course of action.
   
   Helps with? Food Issue, Economy.
   
   
   
10. Knowledge of the Ether
    
    Why? The last tech of the plan. It has a simple purpose, transform desert into plains with spring adepts. This (combined with sanitation and construction) will make almost every spot in the map proper for expansion, including some with some nice resources. Seriously, the map is covered in desert. It's so bad that I'm going for KotE with the Khazad.
    
    Helps with? Bad Terrain Issue, Food Issue, Economy.
    

Well, that's certainly a lot of beakers and it'll keep me busy for a long time. I'm aware of that, rest assured. But all those techs are needed if I want even a decent economy. This game has a slower pace than the other FfH games that are currently being played, because the terrain is very bad. Every possible solution will take a lot of time to be implemented. If everything comes across as planned, we'll be in a very good position and we'll be able to start thinking properly about how to actually win the game.


Note: the last part of this post will be made later. I'm tired after having written all this, so I hope you can understand. I'll edit the rest here when I'm able to.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Keep em coming! I really enjoy reading these things. It's nice that the art of micro is not lost in FFH.

Plus you're better at this planning thing than I am

[Ichabod]

Keep em coming! I really enjoy reading these things. It's nice that the art of micro is not lost in FFH.

Plus you're better at this planning thing than I am

Thanks for the comment, Nicolae. Always nice to see that there are people reading !

Regarding Micro, I'm sure there are lot of players that do great micro plans in FfH (maybe not as much as in BTS). The difference is that I'm more of a show off :neenernee. But my micro is limited to very simple decisions on a turn per turn basis. I don't have longer plans and I go along with gut feeling a lot of times.

The game is moving at such a slow pace that I have a lor of time to plan. I've been thinking about this things from a long time. But it keeps constantly changing. And it's nice to bounce the ideas with others too.

[Ravus Sol]

Those Elohim are VERY close to Titanic...

The tech path seems good. The barbarians are certainly going to be good at training up your units.

The Hunting side track is worth it considering you are staying ahead of the pack tech wise.

[Xenoborg]

Nothing to add since I'm spoiled, but I love the detail you put into your reports, keep them coming.

Also, could you turn on detailed city information on the game options? It will let us see build and growth times on your screenshots.

[Ichabod]

Those Elohim are VERY close to Titanic...

The tech path seems good. The barbarians are certainly going to be good at training up your units.

The Hunting side track is worth it considering you are staying ahead of the pack tech wise.

Yup, they are. Thats one of the problems with bad exploring. I actually thought that the area south of my civ was the area belonging to Selrahc in the beggining of the game. Guess I was wrong and it seems that another player will have that land to expand too. Well, I can still expand in Mardoc and Jkaen's direction. Gotta claim all that tasty desert !

I hope that the barbs keep coming for a long time. Getting XP is always good and I can really use the animals to help my cities. I'm really looking forward for Hunting, as you can see.

Nothing to add since I'm spoiled, but I love the detail you put into your reports, keep them coming.

Also, could you turn on detailed city information on the game options? It will let us see build and growth times on your screenshots.

Thanks, Xenoborg. I'm glad that the thread is a pleasant read. We do it for the lurkers, after all !

I'll turn the detailed city information on. I have to keep some of the graphic options off in the computer I normally play the saves on (you can see that the units sometimes morph into other things - it's because of frozen animation, if I remember correctly), but the detailed city information won't hurt.

[Ichabod]

It seems that Sciz killed Orthus this turn (I already played the save, but didn't check the turnlog). That's troublesome. Not that the Hippus suddently became dangerous, they were dangerous already, but the axe can give the courage/moral boost that Sciz need for an "early" attack.

Guess it's time to start sweet talking Sciz into some kind of combined attack against somebody else. It's not something I'd want to do right now, but the preparations can always start early. The best thing it'll bring me is safety against the Hippus, maybe even some kind of NAP. I need to secure myself during the time that Horse Archers shine. Sciz won't be able to keep with me economically, so late game will be in my favour.

Certainly something to think about. It's just an idea worth considering for now...

[Ravus Sol]

It seems that Sciz killed Orthus this turn (I already played the save, but didn't check the turnlog). That's troublesome. Not that the Hippus suddently became dangerous, they were dangerous already, but the axe can give the courage/moral boost that Sciz need for an "early" attack.

Guess it's time to start sweet talking Sciz into some kind of combined attack against somebody else. It's not something I'd want to do right now, but the preparations can always start early. The best thing it'll bring me is safety against the Hippus, maybe even some kind of NAP. I need to secure myself during the time that Horse Archers shine. Sciz won't be able to keep with me economically, so late game will be in my favour.

Certainly something to think about. It's just an idea worth considering for now...

Oh that's harsh... that's a perfect item to tempt the benign Sciz Hippus into more aggressive territory. Blitz for horsemen is insane.

Who do you have in mind? Elohim have that insane worldspell... No one ever wants to rush them just because it will be a one off to remove their Sanctuary. Kuriotates you have been buddying up too... That only really leaves the Lanun or the Amurites as targets.

None of it sounds good. But Hippus are your Kryptonite. All that speed against your short hairy slowness. You need some kind of agreement/NAP

[Ichabod]

Oh that's harsh... that's a perfect item to tempt the benign Sciz Hippus into more aggressive territory. Blitz for horsemen is insane.

Who do you have in mind? Elohim have that insane worldspell... No one ever wants to rush them just because it will be a one off to remove their Sanctuary. Kuriotates you have been buddying up too... That only really leaves the Lanun or the Amurites as targets.

None of it sounds good. But Hippus are your Kryptonite. All that speed against your short hairy slowness. You need some kind of agreement/NAP

The prospect of having a Hippus army knocking on my door is certainly frightening (especially with a Orthus axe blitzed one). It's not that big of a deal since the Hippus world spell already gives blitz to every unit. But it certainly makes for some terrifying scenarios.

But, as much as the hippus are a threat to the Khazad (for the mobility, like you pointed out), the Khazad also specialize on one of the Hippus weaknesses. They have very, very hard cities to take. With their bonus defenses and agressive trait, it'll be hard for Sciz to benefit from an attack against me. He could seriously damage me, but there's no guarantees that he'd benefit from it.

I have to keep showing a strong position. That means not falling too much on teh power graph, getting some military and such. But, like I said, it's not easy to get a big army this early. Horsemen are expensive, require a good amount of teching and Stables. Of, course, if everything else fails, let's hope he finds Jkaen or Mardoc a tastier target then me...

[Ichabod]

[SIZE="3"]Turns 62-64:[/SIZE]

Very uneventful turns, unfortunately. Of course, they are laying the basis for the future developments that I hope to achieve, so they are a necessity. But they were boring, that's for sure...

The big news in the foreign lands was the slaying of Orthus. Yeah, Sciz, the most agressive of our neighboors was the one who killed him. But what can you do? My thesis that Mardoc lost his second city to Orthus wasn't right, so I guess he had bad rolls with normal barbs. The turnlog confirmed it:

At least Sciz took quite a beating in his power graph, probably 3 warriors or something like that. Orthus had quite some time to get some XP before he reached a player, so he had possibly combat 3 or something like that. I'm the current power leader now:

I had to keep dealing with barbs throughout the empire. I haven't yet lost a >70% battle, which is very lucky. My top XP warriors can get 99% odds now. I'll probably lost one of this battles soon, so it's sensible to keep some backup warriors.

Boatmurdered started on a worker after the warrior, due in 4 turns. I'll use him to pre-road the area of the hunting resources. Hindenburg started an Elder Council. Yeah, I finally decided to forget about my previous GP plan and go for an Academy as the first GP. The problem with the previous plan is that if I can't get a GEng for sure as the second GP, it's not worth to go for the RoK shrine early. An academy will give a much needed tech boost and we'll need it.

My question is how important is getting the RoK holy city to you, are you planning on getting the shrine quickly? As you've given up quite a few concessions in return for the non-compete agreements.

Well, now that I can't accomplish my GEng plan, the shrine is not that useful. I'll still try to get it, though, but not with my first GP. Another earth mana, gold and GEng points will be nice to have, but it's nothing that special. In the end, my flawed knowledge of the mechanincs made me make an error in judgement. I payed a lot for this Holy City and it won't be that useful. Well, what can you do? We all make mistakes.

Here's an overview from turn 63 showing what each city is producing. I changed every city to a market after Festivals was teched in EoT 63. They are so cheap playing as financial!

In the next pictures you can see 2 interesting things. In blue we have Bombur (name from one of the Hobbit dwarves), a combat 2 warrior that I decided to send to explore my west. I'll have hawks in some turns, but since I have enough warriors to protect me and the maintenance of the units is starting to get worst, I can afford letting him take a walk in the wilderness. I really want to meet Jkaen as soon as possible.

In red, you can see the animals I'll be able to capture with my hunters. Bears give hapiness and culture and don't require a Carnival (currently there are 3, 1 for capital, 1 for Titanic, 1 for a 4th city). Lions can be settle in the capital to increase the happy cap. A strenght 5, combat 2 scorpion would be pretty useful for defense too.

A little bit of empire overview. Hindenburg will finish in 3 turns, not 4, after it grows to size 4 and I finish the horse pasture. The Elder Council will finish in 3 turns after that and I'll hire a scientist. Then, it'll be a 23 turn wait for the scientist (maybe I'll try to get it in 20 by working a merchant for some turns). Well, what can you do, at least I'll have an academy before turn 100.

Boatmurdered:

Hindenburg:

Titanic:

Demographics. The GNP is misleading, because I'm running 100% gold (decided to go for a binary research approach to avoid rounding errors, Hunting will be completed in 8 turns at full research, 9 counting the 100% gold one - I can still be above 150 gold after 8 turns of 100% research with the soon to be built markets). I'm a bit disappointed, because I thought I'd be in a better position... Maybe after some pop growth I'll be better...

Now we wait for the long way until hunting. Goes to show how a game with really bad terrain gets a long time to start getting traction...