Tech Trading turned off

[T-hawk]

By the way, I certainly expect to play games both ways, with tech trading turned on and off. I'm just concerned that the "default" Epics behavior seems to be moving towards turning it off, without an event necessarily needing particular justification. Adventure Thirteen in particular has sufficient civs not to run into the problem of too few traders to trade, and the scenario setup really doesn't have anything to do with technologies. No Tech Trading is just set to put an additional arbitrary restriction on the player. I like variants as much as anyone, but I like them to have a cohesive feel and direction, not just hacks applied to the game balance.

[Sullla]

The idea that No Tech Trading helps the human is bordering on preposterous, except in rare cases where the human is shut out of tech trading by rule or by circumstance, while a group of AIs are in contact and at peace. The higher the difficulty level, the more preposterous that notion becomes.

I still disagree. No Tech Trading slows the overall teching pace, making the game longer, giving the human a better shot at winning on high difficulty. The human also knows how to prioritize important techs (i.e. early maces, early Liberalism, early Assembly Line) and can thus have a monopoly of the best military forces in a way that just doesn't happen with tech trading on, when tech trading quickly catches everyone else. I'm not talking Monarch games here, this is based on experience with Immortal.

What I'm saying is not based on any theory I have, just empirical evidence from playing lots of games on Emperor and up with and without tech trading enabled. I don't have time for a lengthy response at the moment, and T-Hawk has already said more or less what I was going to... so I'll stop here.

[uberfish]

Actually, tech trading gives the human players an easy run at liberalism or whatever vertical research path they choose to pursue (since you can just trade for everything you skipped along the way.) However, the flip side is that turning tech trading off significantly delays the AI's progression to its two key defensive techs of Feudalism and Rifling. This makes it too easy for the human to go on a conquering rampage, especially on epic speed when you can spam out (classical) catapults or (renaissance) cavalry and have an extended attack window with them.

Because early-midgame military expansion is already the dominant strategy in civ4, I would say the only level where tech trading off makes the standard conditions game more difficult overall is deity. But standard deity pretty much requires tech trading just to be playable because of the ludicrous AI starting bonuses which give it late-medieval techs like optics in 200AD or so. Without tech trading you aren't getting out of that hole before the AIs launch spaceship.

[Sirian]

Adventure Thirteen in particular... the scenario setup really doesn't have anything to do with technologies.

Au contraire. As the architect of Adventure Thirteen, I must inform you that No Tech Trading is an integral part of its design. You'll have to wait for Closing Day for further explanation, though.

You can also relax. I don't intend for No Tech Trading to become "the default" for the Epics. What I do intend is to remove Tech Trading as the default. That's a subtle distinction, but not the same thing. Both ways should now be considered mainstream options. Probably the only thing that could reverse this move is if all the No Trading games are cricket-infested on Closing Day, with like two reports, while there are droves playing every Trading game. If that should happen, then I'll admit I've botched it and will undo the change. Short of that, I'd have to advise folks to get used to the new normal.


Epic Nine will have Trading on, by the way. Epic Ten will not.


- Sirian

[sooooo]

As the architect of Adventure Thirteen, I must inform you that No Tech Trading is an integral part of its design. You'll have to wait for Closing Day for further explanation, though.

I'd be interested to hear this explanation . A few mentioned that the no-tech-trading made the game too easy, preventing the AIs from getting rifles until too late.