A little guidance...

[Swiss Pauli]

when you guys say "maximize everything" do you mean just commerce, hammers, and food? Or also the maximize gp and science buttons also?

Just the hammers, commerce and food in all cities. Maybe GP in 1 or 2.

I always randomize everything, so I can't come up with a strategy until I scout the land and discover at least a few of the mystery number of civs. [...] What do you think your strategy would have been?

If everything is random then it's simplest to consider wins where you're not relying on the AI to (not) do stuff. The easiest victories are Conquest/Domination and Spaceship, insofar as you're in control of your own destiny: Diplomacy requires a bit of luck and Culture can leave you too weak militarily.

I didn't look too closely at the save...I just looked into the cities and analysed the research situation. Assuming you have the initial save then why not post it up as I'm sure a few of us would play it out. I would for sure - until the huge map kills my poor notebook! I'd aim for Spaceship, but I quite like Classical wafare to build my empire, rather than found all my cities personally.

[Iustus]

I chopped out the questions that were answered above. I agree, try keeping the governor on (it defaults to on) from the start, as much as possible. Learn to not click which tiles to work, but instead, just click the food/hammer/coin icons to switch which tiles are worked. You will notice if you click a plot yourself, then the governor automatically switches off. If you switch it back on, then the tiles change again.

Note, that you can switch specialists while the governor is on (try it), and it will preserve the specialists you choose, while doing the rest. Be careful you do not select too many specialists this way, as it will never remove them. (Clicking the governor on and off will remove this preference, choosing only the specialists it thinks you should have).

Yes, I did. I just didn't scout far enough before planting the city. I also am taking note of your dotmap. I seem to have a real problem with overlapping cities. I just can't usually bring myself to do it, lol. But I'm seeing more and more that it's not so bad?

I was the same way for a long time. In fact, I still am in many ways. I still hate to overlap cities more than many people do. But it really is ok to do, not prefered, but often better than not doing it. Particularly early on, when the distance penalty is hurting the most, a little overlap can actually work to your advantage. Your cities will not be close to max size anyway. It may hurt you eventually, but by the time your cities can get to size 20+, chances are you already have the game won.

Also, as for the wasted space, I was trying to rush settlers to take land on my home continent, as I was desperately afraid that I would be blocked off in the southern tip of the continent early on. I claimed land and just never took the time to fill in the empty space... this is also becuase it would have overlapped some cities...

Nothing wrong with this. If you can afford the distance cost, some times it makes sense to jump ahead, found a city further out to claim some space, then go back and fill the holes.

One rule of thumb I would recommend you use: make sure you use every food resource you see in some city whenever possible. Food resources are really what drive cities to success. Excess food is what allows you to work production and commerce heavy tiles, particularly mines. Now, if you can found a city that is 100% grassland, then you do not need any food resources at all, but otherwise, it is food resources that will let you minimize the number of farms you need in order to make all the hills and so on useful.

Which brings me to my second suggestion: start counting food in every city you found. I do this both when deciding on a city, and after I found a city, when deciding what improvements to build.

The way that you place improvements reminds me of how I used to do it not that long ago. What I used to do was look at the tile, and 99% of the time, what it was determined what I built. If it was a flat grassland, then it got a cottage. If it was a hill, it got a mine. And so on. Well this will not do. You need to think of cities as a whole, not as a collection of separate plots. Which leads to counting.

The method I count is rather simple. Start at the top of the fat cross, and count across, each row, 3 plots, 5 plots, 4 plots (the middle plot is special), 5 plots, 3 plots, so, other than the center plot (which is almost always 2 food) you have 20 plots to count. For each plot you count like this. A regular grassland tile (2 food), count as zero, (skip it). A flat plains is minus one (-1), a plains hill is minus 2 (-2), if the city is coastal, then all ocean tiles are zero, otherwise they are -1 (lake tiles are even, unless coastal, then they are +1). Resource tiles count as how much food they will be when improved minus 2 (but do not count the biology bonus), do count irrigation, if it is possible. This makes most food resources plus 3 or plus 4.

Lets take two examples, from the above pictures. Looking first at Athens: -1, 0, 0; 0, 0, -1, +1, +3; 0, -2, 0, 0; 0, 0, 0, 0, 4; 0, 0, 0. Ok those are the numbers for each tile. Now, when I count it, I actually do the math in my head, so as I point to the tiles with my finger, I say out loud or in my head: -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -2, -1, +2, +2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, +4, +4, +4, +4. Net result, Athens is +4. That is fantastic, that means with zero farms, you can support two specialists, plus the one extra from the middle square. (I generally do not count the middle square, as that allows me to always have at least 2 food excess in a city, which allows growth, or running of one specialist.)

Same thing for Sparta, just the numbers I say out loud or in my head as I count: -1, ., +2, 0, -2, . -3, -5, ., ., -6, -8, ., ., -4, ., -5, ., ., ., = -5 total. This city is short 5 food necessary to work all the tiles (and one specialist). (I put in dots for the break even tiles, because that is how I think of them, just skip to the next tile, 2 food is break even).

So, then I look to see how I can get that 5 food. If you put a farm to the south of the corn, that adds 1 food for the farm, plus one more food for irrigating the corn, thats 2 food. You need 3 more farms to get to 5 food, and then you can work all the mines. Or you could add 3 windmills (plus the 1 farm) to get to 5 food. Or you could add 5 windmills and no farms.

For this city, I would say that 3 farms is the way to go, making it a production powerhouse, but that is really a judgement call, there is no right answer. I do think that you get enough bang for the buck that you should definitely irrigate that corn, but depending on the situation, perhaps that is not even necessary. In general, I would say it is always a good idea to make sure that you irrigate all your food resource farms (corn/wheat/rice). (Irrigation can be chained from any fresh water resource once you have Civil Service, it cannot go through hills, but it will go through cities on the flats).

The important thing here is to start counting your food when you are deciding what improvements to build. (Note, there are some cases in the early game where you do not take this into account. Perhaps you build extra mines, which you work while starving to biuld an early wonder, etc. But those are advanced ideas once you are comfortable with the basics).

How did you place that link? I tried to upload and it said that was an inappropriate file type?

That is the wrong thing, it is not an upload, you uploaded the file to CivFanatics already. When you upload the file to CivFanatics, it provides a link to the file, in this case it was:

Code:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/100342/mbuna120_AD-1838.CivWarlordsSave

Now what you do is here, you click the "Insert Hyperlink" button (looks like a globe with a chain link in front of it). A window will come up asking for the text you want to be displayed for the link. You can keep this blank, but in your case, I typed in "Mbuna120 1838 Warlords Save", the next screen asks for the url, which the http stuff above (in the code block). This is what ends up in your text, before you post it. (I changed the square brackets to curly brackets, because the code block does not ignore the inside as it probably should.)

Code:

{URL=http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/100342/mbuna120_AD-1838.CivWarlordsSave}Mbuna120 1838 Warlords Save{/URL}

Note, another way to do this, is in windows to select the file, select "Send To..." -> "Compressed (zipped) folder" and then upload the zipped save directly here to Realms Beyond.

hope this helps.

-Iustus

[mbuna120]

Assuming you have the initial save then why not post it up as I'm sure a few of us would play it out

Do you really think others would take a stab at it if I did something like this in the future? I don't have the original file now, I just held on to the posted save so I could go back to it.

To Iustus:

What you have taken the time to write is phenomenal. I really appreciate it, and I hope that some of the other noobs on RB have read and learned by this post as well. I will now take more time to look over what a city is capable of producing. The counting isn't hard, but I have to do it a few times to be able to remember what number each tile gets assigned. I can't wait to finish up with tennis tonight and take a look at counting the tiles Also, I started another game and began using the city governor. It seems I always have more population on hand to now. My cities tend to grow into unhappiness quicker, but I can see how the cycle benefits me. Your assumptions about how I decide to place my improvements because you used to do the same...? They are 100% accurate, lol. So are floodplains +3 or +2?

[Swiss Pauli]

If there's a gap between events there'll be one or two interested in most games, especially if the settings are somewhat different from the standard set-up.

[Iustus]

So are floodplains +3 or +2?

Floodplains give 3 food, so they are actually +1 (remember, 2 food is neutral).

This means if you just build the default (a cottage or watermill), you will have +1 excess food from this tile. If you decide to put a farm there, it will give you 2 excess food (and 3 once you hit biology).

The key here is that two food is what is needed to work a tile, so two is 'zero'. Anything over 2 is positive, anything under 2 is negative.

If you happen to settle a city on a food resource (99% of the time a bad idea), it will give you 3 food instead of the normal 2, so you can count this as +1 as well.

The basic idea is simple here, you need a net balance of food. That means for every tile less than 2 food, you need to make that up somewhere, either from food resources, or from farms/windmills.

Things can be a bit more complicated if you are planning for State Property, but that is usually pretty late in the game. I usually do not worry about State Property, figuring any bonuses I get from it I can use to work extra specialists, but it can make a big deal, particularly if you want to use workshops.

-Iustus

[Atlas]

Things can be a bit more complicated if you are planning for State Property, but that is usually pretty late in the game. I usually do not worry about State Property, figuring any bonuses I get from it I can use to work extra specialists, but it can make a big deal, particularly if you want to use workshops.

Good Advice here. State Property comes along so late that I would not really plan tile improvements around it very much (maybe for a single city). I also would not plan tile improvements around Biology either. These (normally) come so late in the game that you should either have won by then or be in a winning position (but if you have not, then levereage them to your advantage and enjoy- close games are the most fun )

Along this line- I don't really even plan tile improvements around lumbermills ? I normally have a chop now and worry about it later approach. Once I run out of tiles to work that are improved, I normally start chopping to put improvements down. Any thoughts?

Caveat- If the health restriction is lower than the happy then I don't continue chopping.

[Iustus]

I normally have a chop now and worry about it later approach. Once I run out of tiles to work that are improved, I normally start chopping to put improvements down. Any thoughts?

I have the opposite problem. I tend to keep a lot of forests, probably more than I should.

The closer you are getting to lumber mills, the more important it is to keep those forests.

Also, it really depends on how your production is looking. If you have a ton of hills, then you do not really need forests. (I always chop forests on hills, as a mine is equal to a lumber mill, not counting the hammers you got from the chop). If you are on islands with almost no hills, then you better save those forests.

Chopping forests in your first couple cities makes a lot more sense than chopping forests at 1000 AD.

I hate working non-improved forest tiles, but if I have enough other tiles to work, that I can save some forests, I try to do it.

Tundra forests always should be saved unless they are never going to be on a city.

I usually chop river forests, even on grassland, because watermills are almost as much production as lumbermills, plus you can chop the forests early and build the watermill much earlier (or just build a farm and change to watermill later). Not to mention the fact that you get an extra commerce if you build a cottage there.

But as I say, I probably leave too many forests around, not taking as much advantage of the chops as I might.

-Iustus

[theGrimm]

Tundra forests always should be saved unless they are never going to be on a city.

-Iustus

Actually, freshwater Tundra can be useful for a few things, and earlier than lumbermills, in a pinch.

[Drugged_Unholy]

(I always chop forests on hills, as a mine is equal to a lumber mill, not counting the hammers you got from the chop).

Plus with a mine you can "pop another one"

[Zeviz]

The question of whether to chop forests, just like the question of how much food you need for your cites, depends entirely on your goals for the game.

If you are going for rapid military expansion, early production is the most important thing. So you'll have to clear-cut everything to conquer your neighbor, use his forests to get an army to conquer the next neighbor, etc. Your early cities will have a happy cap of 7-10, so you don't need much food for them either.

On the other extreme, if you are planning for a peaceful space race, you'll have to optimize your late game empire. This means saving most forests for lumbermills (or for emergencies in case of unexpected devastating attack). You'll also need to plan to have enough food for your cities to reach size 12-18.

Even when you are going for space, I wouldn't worry about food cituation as long as the planned city has at least 1 food resource (for faster initial growth) and enough food to reach size 12-18 without farms. Unless you are actively gathering religions and/or have a large enough empire that the game is decided, you aren't going to have enough happiness and health to grow all cities to size 20+.

While we are talking about city placement, another important aspect of city placement is their interaction with other cities in your and your neighbors' empires. In fact, when I place my cities I don't count food as carefully as suggested here. Instead, I look at the following factors:

0. I need to get as many resources as possible under my cultural control. (Not necessarily within radius of any city.) Even if I already have some resource, it's always good to have an extra copy for trade.

1. How can I get as many resources, floodplains, and grassland tiles as possible into radius of all my cities? Sometimes this means accepting some overlap, or gaps between cities, or both.

2. Will the city have at least 1 food resouce, or a couple 3 food tiles like floodplains and lakes with lighthouses? If the answer is "no", city will grow very slowly, unless it wastes land and population working farms.

3. How large will the city be able to grow with/without farms? The less food around, the more strategically important the city has to be to found it. A city with 10 grasslands is a no-brainer, while a city that will never grow past size 4 makes sence only if you really need that silver right now.

4. In mid-late game, when you have production to spare, you can found any city that will be able to pay for itself. However, the city's cost is not only its own maintanance, but the amount by which it will increase "number of cities" maintanance in other cities, civic upkeep costs, etc. So look at your income before and after founding a city to figure out its true cost.