Werewolf 7 game thread

[Catwalk]

Roland, you mention some experience with uberfish as a fellow wolf and stated that this was very unlike his normal wolf behaviour. Would you care to enlighten us? If he's a colourful wolf, can't he switch styles on a whim? Also, would he happen to be your fellow wolf in this game as well?

[Jkaen]

Sareln, you missed that had voted for you as mayor, but since it seems a pointless vote I will switch to Gaspar

[Sareln]

Having checked the thread (Search by JKaen) I only found you voting for Serdoa, not for me. We are different people you know

[Serdoa]

Serdoa

I honestly don't like any of the first 3 candidates as none of them is in my clearly villager camp. And even though Sarelns tally states otherwise I think someone voted for me already? However, do it now guys

As for the lynch Twinkletoes89

[Ichabod]

I think this is quite important bit. If uberfish would be a villager and was gathering information based on reactions, why would he attack Zak but ignore TT?

Also, his suspect list based on the results were Scooter / Meiz / Catwalk / Zakalwe

Two pro villager players and two "newbs" who have a great chance to act suspiciously. I don't have time to check now, but I think both me and Catwalk were already mentioned as mildly suspicious by some? I find it especially odd that me and scooter got to the suspect list so easily (basically because we couldn't believe that a wolf uberfish would rage quit like that).

This actually makes a lot of sense. I went back to look for the comments amde by Zakalwe and Twinkletoes and they really seem to be pretty similar:

Well uberfish's post throws a spanner in the works.

I just do not understand how he could be anything other than a wolf. Why would a villager ever post something that would so clearly draw a lynch vote to them?

It makes zero tactical sense in any way. Even if he was a villager, contributions such as that are harmful to the village as a whole and would almost be a worthwhile mislynch!

After spending most of the day away, even with my favouring a post limit, i'm not sure whether to be happy that I have only had to catch up with a couple of pages of text.

@Uberfish. I can't imagine why you would say that as a villager, so I guess you actually are a discontented wolf. In which case, I have to say you are displaying very poor sportsmanship.

Uberfish

I don't think Uberfish' post looks like a joke at all. Making a joke like that, which isn't even phrased as a joke, would be horribly bad villager play. And if he were joking, I think he would at least stick around so he could clarify when people inevitably questioned his post. I don't think he has done anything similar previously either. If he has, I'd like to see a link to it.

Bottom line, Uberfish is claiming to be a wolf. If he is villager, then he's lying, so he should be lynched anyway under the lynch all liars policy. I'm sure Twinkletoes will agree.

Both of them didn't leave much room for anything other than lynching Uberfish. Very similar reactions.

But while I was rereading, this post by Erebus jumped to my eyes. He also put the posts from Zakalwe and TT regarding Uberfish gambit in a different category:

I agree with others that I originally read it as a joke towards Lewwyn's & Gaspar's "uberfish is always a werewolf", but I didn't comment at first and read everyone elses comments first. Then I slept on it.

For the average villager the biggest issue is we don't know what uberfish's actual role is.

If he's a wolf, then the wolf responses would be damage control, minimizing his actions while trying to convince him to keep playing. [Roland, Serdoa, Rowain, Twinkletoes, Gaspar, Scooter]

If he's innocent, then the wolf response is to either get rid of him now before things get worse or to paint him untrustworthy. [Zakalwe, Catwalk, Lewwyn]

Injera and myself didn't really comment until after the reveal was done, and Ichabods and Meiz comments were rather non-commital.

As villager my first instinct was to vote him off, then to let him stew and see if he just straight quit thus not wasting a lynch on him. I also wanted to see if this was a ploy.

The issue is one of circular logic without knowing Uberfish's role. I saw we leave Uberfish alone for now and watch him.

However, one persons response in particular disturbed me. That's Zakalwe.

Apparently he didn't learn his lesson from WW6 about using up our precious vig-kills when he caused Kuro killed. Or did he.

The always analytical Zak never approached this from the possibility that Uberfish was villager. He never had any doubts and went straight for the throat, a strange play for Zak unless he knew that Uberfish's claim was a farce. As MJW put it: Zak has a reputation to live up to, and I don't believe he did so in this respect. As such he seems very suspicious to me.

Maybe it's because of a later post by TT, but it caught my eye either way. It's easy for people to have different reads on something and Erebus made a difference between Zakalwe's and TT's the same way as Uberfish did. It's important to read the posts in between the Gambit and Uberfish suspect list, not just the ones directly following.

Here's TT post:

I knew it wouldn't be long until you'd put my name in red zak

Seriously now, I didn't vote straight for uberfish as this is the first day and rushing into 'blinkered mode' by voting for the first person who has looked wolfish is foolish.

Can you honestly say that my summary was incorrect though? Given that post in isolation, having not dealt much with uberfish in WW games, it is something which confused me considerably.

IMO I still don't think its a wise play at all and has put him at the top of my suspects list right now, but I don't disagree with his statement that the reactions to it can also be revealing.

I wanted to see the fallout from uberfish's statement before voting and see what defence (if any) he put up for it.

Why vote so early when there is so much time for my mind to be changed?

[Roland]

Roland, you mention some experience with uberfish as a fellow wolf and stated that this was very unlike his normal wolf behaviour. Would you care to enlighten us? If he's a colourful wolf, can't he switch styles on a whim? Also, would he happen to be your fellow wolf in this game as well?

Incorrect. I stated experience with uberfish as both a 'Wolf, and a Villager, but never as a fellow 'Wolf. I've never been a 'Wolf before, let alone in conjunction with uberfish. What I was referring to was an earlier game where PMs were allowed, and uberfish convinced me of his innocence when he was actually a 'Wolf. He tried it a second time in a later game, and IIRC I didn't buy it at first, but I think eventually he won me over - to the same effect. I'd like to think I've since wised up, which is why my reaction to his explanation was that it seemed like a Villager-uberfish ploy, rather than a 'Wolf-uberfish ploy. The ploy itself was standard uberfish fare (regardless of how others may view its helpfulness), but just something in his tone in the explanation post made me fall on the side of Villager vibe this time around. It just didn't seem so... obvious, as it has in the past. I remember one game where he tried such a ploy as a 'Wolf, and I thought to myself "I can see right through this. He's guilty." That wasn't the case this time around, so again - made me think he was innocent.

Uberfish is a colorful character - 'Wolf or Villager - but he's usually very insightful, and pretty spot on. What I'm seeing in this game... isn't so much. This, coupled with your point about how he could "change his style on a whim" (which I don't agree with; instead, I see him learning the difference between a ploy that works and one that doesn't) makes me question whether this is a much smarter uberfish 'Wolf than I've seen in the past. I've always thought uberfish is smart, and he's always proven to have a big set of brass balls (pardon the colorful language), but he never seemed to be able to use both at the same time as well as either no its own. I'm honestly starting to think he's learned how, and it seems I'm not the only one who picked up on it - I'm just very late to the party.

I'm very tempted to move my vote off to uberfish, but I'd really like to see what Twinkletoes has to say. He's just been too damn quiet, even for him, and especially with pressure on him. If he hasn't said anything before the end of the day, maybe I'll switch off to uberfish (barring nothing else changes), but right now I prefer my vote where it is.

[Mr. Nice Guy]

I really am open to arguments that uberfish is a wolf; it's the highlighting of uberfish as a bad villager that raises my suspicions.



Well, it's true for a lot of people! With the about a quarter wolves, unless you start to think someone is twice as likely as the others to be a wolf, they're still probably a villager. At the end of the day, though, you gotta vote for someone.

uberfish=\bad at werewolf. When uberfish=villager, uberfish=\bad villager.

Injera, you summed up the other three posts I was going to quote in one simple statement.

Quick summary before I take my daughter to the park:

uberfish>TT>Rowain in my suspicion list.

[Ichabod]

Well, it's getting near the lynch time, so I'll cast my votes.

Even though I can see some of the reasoning behind the Uberfish votes (the argument that he twisted words to make a case is pretty solid - the one about TT and Zak, why he treated them differently, I explained above why I think it is not that strong), I feel more confident voting Sareln. I still can't see why he kept his mayor vote on a player that was voting to lynch him (and he didn't adressed this issue, even though he already posted in the thread). And I think he only contributed when people voted to lynch him. He stayed quiet the rest of the time.

My mayor vote will go to Serdoa. He doesn't fill the criteria that I explained in my first post, but, like I said, I'm not confident in voting in the players that do fill. And Serdoa seems to be innocent to me, since he's playing in a very similar way to WW6.

[Twinkletoes89]

Right guys, here's the deal.

When I signed up for this game, I had 2 free weeks before going back to uni so I could log in multiple times during the day to keep track of discussion and commit.

Unfortunately (well fortunately for my student bank balance!) I have now picked up a lot of work back at university doing summer schools again (as those who dealt with my computer absence in Diplomacy & the FM SG will remember me doing).

I am now working 9-3.30pm in Lancaster today and yesterday, requiring a 6am train and not getting back until 6pm. Tomorrow I'm staying out even later to meet a special friend before they go to the other end of the country for a year. I'm scoring at cricket most of Saturday, then doing summer schools from Sunday evening until the following saturday night.

This was not foreseen when I signed up, and so you will have large quiet periods from me for that time - with only a free hour or two here and there to catch up and reply. And that's all dependent on me getting internet access (I am 90% sure I will, but possible I may not & have to withdraw)

That is why I've been silent today, and given that the situation will last a while now - its best to do full disclosure so you all know why things have changed from my posting last night when I was on a free day.

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Now to the game.

From my one game in WW, I expressly stated my dislike for bandwagons and nothing has changed. I haven't casted my vote because I don't want to hop from target to target aimlessly. I want to be able to fully justify my vote.

I'm probably going to have to re-read all the stuff I've missed as I have rushed somewhat to make a response given all the comments on my silence and also being under threat of lynching.

I am a methodical player, I like to examine plenty of evidence before drawing conclusions while I know others like to jump on each new thing that comes up and start tying them together.

All the talk of 'if so & so is a wolf, then so must this guy' with just one day's worth of evidence is both risky and has the potential to be counter-productive. Blinkering ourselves early may yield one good result with a bit of luck, but could then lead us down a false trail of mislynches because of these assumptions.

One thing I would like to counter right now is some people seeming to suggest I was trying to minimise uberfish's early provocative comment. I was firmly critical of it, saying (as Zak later did) that it was either a stupid wolf move or a stupid villager move and so even a mislynch on him if he turned out to be innocent would not be a loss. I am still not convinced by his explanations, but I will not cast my vote early like others did as he deserves the right to try and dig himself out of the hole he dug, which would also be useful.

Now I shall look at your other complaints and see what I can do to counter them.

[Roland]

Can't remember if I cast a Mayor vote yet (after I moved to No Vote), so chalk me up for Serdoa as well. No one else seems to fit the bill for me, so he gets my vote. Besides, I don't recall ever seeing him be Mayor, so I think a fresh face on the scene might help the Village.