Werewolf 7 game thread

[zakalwe]

This is the other thing I was wanting to address. Why MNG?? He wasn't exactly a highly trusted villager, so it only seems logical if they had some degree of confidence that he might be the baner. A previous scry is possible as well, but IMO, role-blocking the baner and letting him live seems a bit more logical to me, but maybe I'm nuts there.

Even if MNG getting killed on night 2 was as a result of him getting scried on night 1, it means he was very high up on their list of possible power roles. It feels like a dangerous assumption to read too much into this, because they could just have been lucky. But it's certainly compatible with the theory that many of the wolves are quiet players.

[zakalwe]

Anyway, it's getting very late. I need to sleep.

[scooter]

I went back now and reread your posts from day 1. In my mind, the only thing you say to Uberfish that can be construed as negative is that you ask him "Ever consider that the wolves mostly ignored your post?". In that post, you implied that you thought Uberfish was playing badly, but you didn't say you suspected him of being a wolf.

When I read "It may not be shocking necessarily" I thought you meant that it should (for some reason) be unsurprising that you decided to join a new bandwagon. I did not have the impression that you were previously suspecting Uberfish, and it seemed like quite a turnaround.

So that's why it comes off as suspicious to me; it seems like you may have sensed a Zakalwe bandwagon ™ forming against an innocent villager, and quickly ditched your previous "suspects" in order to give it a proper shove.

Hm, perhaps it was more in my head. I guess I just remember - there was 3-4 hours that I stepped away between my morning frustrated posts and that right-after-lunch post where I dumped on Uberfish - I remember wheels turning in my head and being distracted by it in RL as it made sense to me once I took a step back. Unfortunately, there's just no way for me to show or communicate that in a way that is obviously true... I guess there's part of the disconnect for me - as I know this stuff was going on in my head despite that I didn't get it into writing until others had done so. Dang you all for not waiting for me .

[Gaspar]

Busy day, sorry I haven't been able to help. Just want to address two things:

1. I had nearly the same thought as Injera re: MNG kill. I feel very comfortable there are multiple wolves in the Jkaen, Sareln, Ichabod, scooter, TT group, both based on this piece and my general reads. Gun to my head I'd say TT and Sareln, but there's a lot of day between now and making a decision.

2. Re: scooter, my you're not doing yourself any favors was largely my tacit approval of scooter as a lynch target. I found his last couple of day 2 posts intensely annoying and as such tripped my bells big time. I didn't switch because I felt very confident about Erebus for reasons I've already mentioned several times, but I can't say I was dissappointwd in scooter as second choice. Now, since then, the tone of his posts has sounded like a villager who realizes he messed up and is floundering to fix it, which doesn't sound to me like wolf scooter at all. I'd expect wolf scooter to be more aggressive in the face of challenges. Let's see how he behaves the rest of the day before we commit to letting him off the hook, however.

[Ichabod]

I'll try to be more active today and change the way I've played so far, especially on day 2. I shouldn't have taken so long to vote. I feel bad about the end of the day 2, it seemed like there were things left to discuss that maybe we could have discussed if I had tried to vote earlier and comment more.

I can't understand the last minute vote changes, especially by Roland and Serdoa. I thought the case against Erebus was pretty good and much of it I realized due to Serdoa posting. I can understand Roland vote a bit more, because I remember him doing things like that in previous games (late vote changes and such, but I don't remember him particularly suspicious of scooter, just defending Erebus). But I really want to hear from you, Serdoa. It's not because I suspect that it was a wolf move, but I want to know what have I missed that made him change.

Until know I played trying to look from inconsistencies made by the players, things which I couldn't understand. But it doesn't seem to be working well. My take on Erebus ended up in a mislynch and my take of Meiz can't get me around his general play, who I think has been pretty villager like. I'll adress Sareln and Catwalk later in the post.

I'll try to talk about the general feel I have been feeling from each player. I don't know if it'll be more helpful then what I have been doing previously, but at least everyone will know where I'm coming from and the possible flaws in my judgement (I feel there are players that I can't read very well and I let them go unnoticed when I read or reread the thread - it was what happened with Zakalwe and scooter in WW3 - I never got enough focus on them, which always lead my vision to go to another player, ending in constant mislynches). I haven't had the time to reread day 2. It's very long and it has a lot of long posts. I'll try to read more of it later through the day, but I don't know if I'll have the time, so it's better to post soon (I wanted to read everything again before making much of my comments on day 2 and I ended up being out of time). If I am making a mistake about certain posts, please point it out (I made much of the reading through the post by certain players).

So, i'll talk about specific players now.

Jkaen: I agree with scooter here. I don't see a point in talking about him, because there's nothing to talk besides "if" theories. It's very frsutrating, but there's nothing to be done about it, in my opinion.

Scooter: I don't have any specific inconsistent play in your game until now, scooter. Earlier on day 2 i've said that even when I found suspicious things by a certain player, later posts would make me doubt my suspicions. The thing with you, scooter (and with other players too), is that I didn't feel the same reassuring with your posts. I have to say that your posts now are being good and appreciate the discussion you are proposing (and the one you had with Zak and Injera until now).

But you are one of teh players that I can't still read very well. It seems that I can't take anything from your posts besides what is actually directly written. While when i read the posts by other players, I can feel something else. It's difficult to explain, but in the end it makes me go past your posts without filling it in my mind picture of the game. So it makes it hard to not suspect you.

The only specific thing I can say about your play was already pointed out by Zakalwe:

But to answer the question of why I have been thinking you may be guilty, Scooter: The voting record shows you joining a bandwagon on both Uberfish and Erebus at what seems like strategic moments, helping them get going. When you voted for Uberfish on day 1, I have to say I agree with Meiz that you were really just rehashing the arguments that others had already made. Nothing wrong with leaning on others, but you could have said that you just agreed with what the others said. I thought you might be a wolf who wanted to give the bandwagon an extra big shove by restating and emphasizing the reasons for suspecting him. Ironically, I thought you did kind of the opposite on day 2 when voting for Erebus, by implying that you had already listed numerous reasons for suspecting him, when I didn't really feel that was actually the case. At the time, I thought that was because Erebus was guilty and you didn't really want him to hang. Just goes to show that everything can be construed as wolfish, particularly if you put on your wolf glasses.

I felt both your lynch votes were pretty similar. They were based on similar "weak" evidences (the uberfish trying a wolf gambit and the Erebus vigilante and fake edit things) and they were made on similar game moments. Some votes had already been placed on both Uber and Erebus and your vote came in after this votes that made the players lead the tally. But I also suspected Erebus based on the same evidence, so I understand part of this.

This is what I think about you, scooter. I always seem to let your posts pass me by without much considerations and it worries me. In the end, it may just be my weakness.

Serdoa: I think Serdoa is the player that I'm more confident that it's a villager. I agree with a lot of things he posts and I even voted for Erebus based in some pretty good points he made about him. I also agree with things he said about the game in general, like the likely possibility of inactive wolves. I really hope Serdoa will participate of the discussion today and not let his frustration overcome him (if my read on him is correct).

@Serdoa: I just want to understand why you made that last minute switch. Was it to see how some specific villagers (like Zakalwe) would react? I don't remember you suspecting scooter much and I thought you were set on Erebus. If it was to read reactions, what villagers you wanted to see? Just Zakalwe? And you said you had a very good guess about who the wolves could be, which were the players you were referring too?

Zakalwe: I think Zakalwe is sounding a lot like a villager. I think he overreacted a bit regarding Uberfish, but it wasn't a suspicious play, in my mind. I found the scooter vote more suspicious (the early bandwagon on day 1), because he used an argument that could be generalized to a lot of other players. But he already adressed this issue and it seemed solid explanation, because I expect Zakalwe to get past some facts to make a stronger case. And he sticked to Erebus until the end, which is consistent play too.

I think I learned to read Zakalwe a bit better after some games (it's not the same I feel with scooter) and I can't feel the same that Serdoa feels. I'm afraid of Zakalwe, because he already proved he can be very deceiving and I'm certain he would be able to change his play from game to game, if needed. But right now, I can't see myself voting Zakalwe. I agreed with his thoughts about some players (Roland and Sareln, for example), which is also a good sign.

Meiz: I found Meiz behaved strangely two times during this game, his trust in Catwalk and his apparent "forgeting of scooter". i received a good answer to teh first suspicion and the second was based on a subjective interpretation by myself that the other players didn't agree on (not a single one of them, if I remember correctly). Other than that, his play has been solid. I feel he's being helpful, he states his reasons and arguments. The only thing that holds me back still is that I get the same feeling I had with Zakalwe on WW3. He seems to be going in this game too lightly. But I guess it's just his personality (and his thoughts about scooter lately go against it too).

Roland: I have to agree with Zakalwe regarding Roland. I still feel the same about him then I felt on the previous game we played together (and WW2, which I lurked). He's always right in hindsight is still here and his posts are on a similar tone and style.

@Roland: I don't mean to be rude, but I'd like if you could make your posts a bit more centered on certain topics each time. I feel like your posts are a big flow of conscience and it seems you forget to tell us how exactly they are connected and how exactly they make sense. I have to say that it's been hard to read your posts, because of their lenght and lack of center. I want to hear what you have to say, but the way it is right now, I can't make much of it.


I'll post this first part now and I'll give my read on the other players after a little break.

[Gaspar]

I was thinking about the game on way home and as such am going to post here before playing my PBEM turns (Sorry, Commodore.) I think realistically the best thing to do is throw out some assumptions that have been made and "start over." Now I don't mean start over completely - we have 2+ days worth of data now. But I mean start over on the who's a wolf/who's a villager bandwagon. In one sense it makes it easier to identify irregularities now that the power roles are dead/have been used. Personally, I'm always wary of those sorts of players who have behaved highly out of character because in previous games we've seen this is also how village power roles behave.

So we have 12 remaining players: Gaspar, Ichabod, zakalwe, Serdoa, Meiz, Roland, scooter, Injera, Erebus, Catwalk, Jkaen, Twinkletoes. Of those 12 there are 4 wolves and 8 innocents. Picking at random gives us a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a wolf. Not bad, actually, if we had a bit more leeway, but we don't. So how can we narrow it down? Well, from my experience wolves generally follow one of 3 types: Obvious, lousy wolf (i.e. me the last two games), unavailable, low-content wolf (i.e. Molach or pling from the last two) and the deep cover wolf, usually requiring a scry or endgame to find (MJW last game.) I don't think we have anyone in the first category, as we'd not be down 2 mislynches now if that were the case. So let's look at potential members from the other categories:

Potential unavailable, low-content wolves: (I'm taking this from memory, which I think is more important than such easily gamed metrics as post count - how often have I thought this player posted something worthy? If the answer is not often, they go here)

Jkaen
Twinkletoes89
scooter
Sareln

I would be frankly stunned if there wasn't a wolf in there, and I think this group is where we should focus today, because they're easier to find than the other group and we're running short of time. Nobody in this group has offered consistent content. TT had a moment of being interesting towards the middle of day 1, Jkaen has basically not played, scooter contributed nothing of consequence until the end of day 2 where he's played slightly more inspired and Sareln has basically been playing uninspired defense the whole time but has presented no real independent observations. Honestly, its entirely possible this is our entire wolfpack, such is the overwhelming uselessness of contribution from the group. Especially if scooter is involved, while he's served little purpose in the thread he's certainly experienced and savvy enough a wolf to be the pack-leader. A word on that, while I'm thinking of it.

Wolves in a werewolf game are just like any other social group. A leader will emerge and the group will begin to take on characteristics of their leader. In WW5, uberfish was the only previous wolf and as such led our little group. Looking back, you see role claims and gambits in general, as uberfish put it here, fancy play. In WW6 I was the only experienced wolf, but novice was probably the nominal leader. novice I think prefers to operate from the shadows, however, and I think you see that from WW6's pack - shadowy would be the best word to describe it. I don't have any utility for this information now, but I feel its a good piece of info for down the line. We have 2 other former wolves in here and still alive, zakalwe and scooter. I wouldn't mind hearing some similar analysis of the WW2 and WW3 packs if they have time.

Anyway, while 4 wolves in that group is entirely possible, my instinct is we have 2 there. Again, gun to the head I'd say TT and Sareln, but I'd like to see more from all 4 of these players as the day goes on. Barring an obvious tell, my lynch vote will come from here.

The other significant group - deep-cover wolves. These are the players that I have to some extent mentally cleared - are generating decent content and talking a lot.

Roland
zakalwe
Serdoa
Meiz
Injera

I think our pack-leader is in here. But I think the best way to root them out at this point is to ignore them (barring again a solid tell) and see what happens as the numbers dwindle another day. If we can hit a wolf today, the personality of that player might be a tip off on who the pack-leader is, as well as the fact that the night-kill is highly likely to come from this group now that we've lost our baner. As we lose high-content villagers, remaining high content players become more likely to be wolves. Serdoa, for one, if he somehow lives through the night I'd say he's extraordinarily likely to be a wolf, because he's accepted by almost all as villager, has the more-powerful-than-normal mayorship and can't be protected. If he dies though, we can start to look at Roland, zakalwe and Meiz in particular. While instinctively I don't actually believe Roland capable of deception on this scale, I'm not arrogant enough to eliminate the possibility. zakalwe is clearly capable of it but I see no difference between his play this game and his play in the last 3 games. Meiz I would normally not think of as a big deceiver, but he did fool the wolves quite expertly the last two games so it would be stupid to not think he could fool the village here. I don't have a choice on who our wolf is, though, and I won't be voting this group without a tell until Day 4, when we know a lot more.

Lastly, this leaves 2 grey area players (for me.)

Catwalk
Ichabod

They are really nothing alike in terms of play-style, but I've gotten the same feeling about them both in this game. Lots of content, though content I haven't always agreed with. Catwalk has been on and off the block all game and hasn't really defended especially well, though he has done so with vigor. I get the sense he is trying to come up with something, but I don't also see anything I really agree with. Ichabod is on almost everyone's must be a villager list, but I keep waffling on him. On one hand his posts are probably the most well-reasoned ones in the game. On the other, they've been excessively infrequent, even for him. On one hand he's always been a cautious, considered player. On the other, he seems almost preternaturally unwilling to commit, which I consider a quite wolfish trait. Still, I think if pressed my 4th wolf is Catwalk, but I again won't be voting from this group, I'll instead be watching them closely and trying to sort them into one of the other two groups.

So, at the risk of sounding like Mardoc from WW3 - my gun to the head wolfpack is TT, Sareln, zakalwe/Serdoa, Catwalk. I don't think we should waste time answering the zak/Serdoa/other village leader question as it will answer itself while we kill the other wolves.

Sareln, I think its time you provided some of your later game insights if you'd like to stay off the block.

[Roland]

One thing that has me thinking right now is that both (assuming Lewwyn was eaten) of the the wolf victims were folks who were laying pretty low. This makes sense; they've targeted villagers who were quiet in search of power roles. Here's the the thing, though: what lets them differentiate MNG from, say, a TT, Sareln? Or Ichabod or scooter? Either they got really lucky last night, or there's some wolves in there that made their choice easier.

I'm going to answer this with my own thoughts, but I'm very interested in what you have to say Injera. Throughout almost the entirety of this game you've struck me as Villager, and I must say the more time goes on the more I think you're going to be one hell of a good Villager in any future WW games - and this one. What are you thinking that you're not telling us here?

As for my thoughts, Twinkletoes and Sareln have garnered suspicion already, and for me only Twinkletoes has really done anything to assuage that (although I think there are a few people who don't feel the same as I do - as to be expected). Mr. Nice Guy... I don't know. Maybe I'm biased, but I never really saw any reason to suspect him, so you'll have to forgive me if he doesn't immediately spring to mind as someone under suspicion. Maybe it's just because I know him and his playstyle so well, and everything that made people jump at him was 100% pure Mr. Nice Guy, tried and true. You could have put a gun to my head and told me if I got the answer wrong you'd pull the trigger, and then asked me if he was a 'Wolf or a Villager; I'd have said Villager. In past WW games the 'Wolves have always gone after the people that were least suspected, and/or confirmed Villagers. The impression I've gathered as a Villager is that it leaves the Village with the least amount of information, whereas leaving someone who's even slightly suspected alive means there's that much more chance they'll be mislynched - and thus won't need to be eaten. Occasionally they seek out some of the more vocal "innocents", but it seems the usual tactic is to seek those who are quieter and/or acting "odd", because that's usually an indication of someone hiding something - and since the 'Wolves all know who each other are, it's likely to make them think that person is a Village power role.

Don't forget, too, that the 'Wolves still have their Devil, so it's entirely possible they got a lucky scry on Night 1. It's doubtful (highly doubtful), but possible, especially since our Roleblocker was killed by the Vigilante on Night 1 - and thus wouldn't have gotten to use his powers (if I understand the rules correctly - I read that part 3 times and it still confused me). Of course, the way this game has been going I suppose I shouldn't discount the idea that they did, in fact, get a lucky Baner scry on Night 1, but that's just a little too much good luck for the 'Wolves for me to accept without cursing a whole bunch. :neenernee

This is the other thing I was wanting to address. Why MNG?? He wasn't exactly a highly trusted villager, so it only seems logical if they had some degree of confidence that he might be the baner. A previous scry is possible as well, but IMO, role-blocking the baner and letting him live seems a bit more logical to me, but maybe I'm nuts there.

But really, I haven't seen any hints of MNG being baner (admittedly I haven't been looking, but did anyone see that coming??)... Has anyone had any theories for who seemed like a baner? I guess I figure if anyone had a serious guess at the baner and that person is still alive, it could be a sign, as the wolves surely would be more thorough than the rest of us. I've had no idea ever honestly, but if someone does, it'd be useful info.

See my comments to Injera. As for "seeing that coming", no I certainly did not. I'd like to think I probably knew MNG better than any of you, and the only thing that stuck out to me was he was unusually quiet. I chalked it up to him being somewhat busy (because he has been consistently so in the past, and his "check in" times were always very erratic), and left it at that. To be honest, I'm still baffled by all the people claiming to know who the Vigilante is. This is part of the reason why I've always said I'd suck as a 'Wolf - I've NEVER been good at guessing power roles (Baner, Seer, etc.) Almost every game I've been in the 'Wolf kill on a power role caught me by surprise, because I've never picked up on any of the clues even some of the Villagers got. Meiz is a perfect example: a few games back he was saved by Rowain as the bodyguard, because the 'Wolves thought he was the Seer (he wasn't). I still have absolutely no idea what "clues" they picked up on, and probably never will. So, yeah I didn't see MNG as the Baner, but I can sorta see why they'd choose to kill him. If you remove the more vocal innocents (zakalwe, Serdoa, Ichabod, myself), as they'd the most likely to garner protection by the Baner, you're not left with many who aren't suspected. Myself, I can think of Injera, Gaspar, and... well, Mr. Nice Guy obviously. Catwalk and Sareln had way too much heat on them to be considered kill targets unless they believed they were the Baner, while Jkaen would be best left for a modkill if he's a Villager (or he's a 'Wolf), and Twinkletoes still has enough people suspicious of him to be in the same boat as Catwalk and Sareln.

That's my take on it, anyway, but I've never played a 'Wolf so I couldn't really tell you from past experience.

1. I had nearly the same thought as Injera re: MNG kill. I feel very comfortable there are multiple wolves in the Jkaen, Sareln, Ichabod, scooter, TT group, both based on this piece and my general reads. Gun to my head I'd say TT and Sareln, but there's a lot of day between now and making a decision.

What the hell makes you suspect Ichabod? I know he's somewhat quiet, but he's always been that way to my recollection. He's always posted very high-quality posts, however, and every game I've been in with him he's earned my respect throughout as one of the better Villager players. I remember my first game with him thinking he was a little wishy-washy, or always trying to play it too safe, but as time went on (later games) either he grew as a player or I learned to tell the difference between someone who's afraid to commit, and someone who sees things differently than others. Probably a bit of both, but I think mostly the former.

I can understand Sareln, scooter, and Twinkletoes, but Ichabod strikes me as just name-dropping for the sake of it. You might as well add Serdoa, zakalwe, and me just to make your list look better, for all the good it does helping us to catch 'Wolves. As a matter of fact, you might as well put my name in there right next to Ichabod - I'm that confident in his status as a Villager, because not a single post he's made has given me any reason to doubt that, and I'd be willing to step in line to defend him because of that.

Now, since then, the tone of his posts has sounded like a villager who realizes he messed up and is floundering to fix it, which doesn't sound to me like wolf scooter at all. I'd expect wolf scooter to be more aggressive in the face of challenges. Let's see how he behaves the rest of the day before we commit to letting him off the hook, however.

This. Oh my F-ing god THIS. I remember scooter from WW2. The whole game - THE WHOLE GAME - it was like he was taunting me. I KNEW damn well he was a 'Wolf, but I couldn't prove it because no one would believe me. It was maddening! What's more, at some point it shifted completely opposite to EVERYONE knowing he was a 'Wolf, and yet no one would do anything! THEY REFUSED TO KILL HIM! I'm sorry for the caps, but I want to convey without question just how infuriating it was to play against scooter as a 'Wolf. That's why I chimed in when Gaspar said 'Wolf scooter makes him want to punch scooter in the face. It makes me want to punch him in the face, and then poor gasoline over his head, just so Gaspar has a place to put out his cigarette when he's done. :neenernee

*ahem* Nothing personal scooter. I'm sure you're a great guy in real life! *cough* Moving right along....

@Roland: I don't mean to be rude, but I'd like if you could make your posts a bit more centered on certain topics each time. I feel like your posts are a big flow of conscience and it seems you forget to tell us how exactly they are connected and how exactly they make sense. I have to say that it's been hard to read your posts, because of their lenght and lack of center. I want to hear what you have to say, but the way it is right now, I can't make much of it.

Erm... well, either you'll love this post or you'll hate it (probably both). :neenernee

Ichabod, I don't know if you know how to be rude, so don't worry about that. Yes, I write very stream-of-conscious. Yes, it must be hell to try and read, especially as someone whom English is not their primary language. I've been trying to be better about that this game (although your comments here make me think I've been failing horribly ). Part of the problem, I think, is I have to catch up on an entire day's worth of American posts by the time I get home from work, and then when I get up in the morning there's a whole day's worth of European posts for me to catch up on, so by the time I get home from work again I have to slog through the entire thread and quote each piece I want to comment on. It makes for a very long post in and of itself (and even this post has taken me well over an hour to craft), and that combined with my writing style / thought process probably doesn't help matters any. I'll see what I can do in the future, but really I'm not sure how I can change it short of cutting out the bulk of who and how I am - and that would only lead to people suspecting me for not being me.

If there's ever any specific things you want to ask me, just call me out in the thread with it and I'll answer as best I can. Otherwise... I'm at a loss as to how to address you and improve my communication to you (and it's not just you, so don't feel singled out). I'm willing to try, I just don't know where to begin.

<snip>

My first reaction ("throw everything out and start over") was to scream at you. Having read through your posts, I only have two things to say.

1) I would have said Sareln and Jkaen as the two inactives, but meh. Personal tastes.

2) Best. Gaspar. Post. EVER. (To be honest, I never knew you even had it in you. Normally I barely see you do more than grunt like a caveman and go "HULK SMASH!" :neenernee )

Ok then, am I finally caught up? Yes? Good. I have nothing further to add on my own at the moment, so I'm ending this here. (Oh please don't let my computer freeze up again!)

[Ichabod]

Injera: I said it previously that I think Injera has a similar way of thinking and playing than me. I agreed with a lot of what Injera said during the game and I feel we have similar voting styles too (I can understand why he didn't vote for Scooter on the end of day 2). I tend to think he's a villager, but I want to hear his take on the other players. If you could say some things about each player, i'd be thankful, Injera. Of course, it'd be good if every player made such a list, but I think I have a specific interest in Injera because of my thinking that we have similar opinions.

Catwalk: I can't say i ever stopped suspecting Catwalk during this game. Since other players voiced that he's sounding like Catwalk on WW6, I decided to let it be for some time. Now, after rereading some of his posts, I tend to think that we just have very different styles of playing, which makes me suspicious of him. But Catwalk's play has been very consistent. I found some of his remarks and even the way he talks (like adressing some players direclty, but not to ask questions, rather to plan and suggest things that I think shouldn't be made by separate groups) very chaotic, I'd say. But in the big picture, they make sense and connect.

I was worried that he could be trying to hide behind Meiz and Zakalwe, but it seems to be just the way he plays the game. I remember a lot of people suspecting Catwalk, so I want to hear why. Roland and Injera voted for him on day 2 (albeit roland switched to scooter), so why do you think about him and about what I've said?

Sareln: I suspected Sareln since the beggining of the game too and I decided not to have tunnel vision on day 2. But I really can't understand Sareln's whole play in this game. His mayor votes didn't make sense to me (voting random at first, even though meiz had already pointed out the importance of the mayor - after that voted for Gaspar who was voting to lynch him), his lynch votes have hardly any reasoning - here's his vote in erebus, for instance:

I'd call it an honest error . I built the original tally for day 2 starting from Gaspar's post and working from there, it's at the top of the page w/ my forum settings. Honestly, I'm surprised the tallies for Day 1 were as accurate as they were, it was a mess keeping track of that. With that out of the way, let's get to the fun part:

To try and manipulate the tally or vote history that people are working with is just a stupid decision. Think about it, I'd need to lie about something that anyone could check. So I'd damage my credibility to accomplish what exactly? A little bit of skullduggery that would last about as long as it took the GM to inform us that their count was off?

Sorry if that sounds dismissive but I think you're trying to cast aspersions my way in a very questionable manner and I'm having trouble coming up with a theory for why you'd do such a thing and be an innocent.

Roland is right, I'm not going to get anything from JKaen outside of his posting period. I'd still love to hear from him, but since my own window is about to close I'm going to park my vote on Erebus .

And his post after that:

Checking in. Quick read through most of the posts given while gone. I don't see any compelling reason to move off of Erebus. Am very concerned about the 3 votes just sort of hanging out there with most of the day gone. @MNG, I think you're looking for something different than I'm willing to write on day 2 when you say "contributions". Anyways, have to go, we'll see how the card falls but Erebus trying to discredit me with the tally counts is just too suspicious for me to let slide.

Someone should build a tally for Mardoc b/c the last tally is something like 5 pages in, can't do it today myself.

/iPod

Maybe I've missed a post somewhere in the thread, but he doesn't give any reason to vote for Erebus. And the only posts where he seems to make an effort is when he's defending himself from accusations. I'm sorry if you think i'm being unfair, Sareln, but I'm a bit frustrated with that. I agreed with Zak post about you in the early day 2, it really made me stop and try to see things from a different perspective. But I can't see anymore reasons to not vote for you. i'm really afraid that you could just be a villager without time or interest and it makes it even more frustrating. If you could give us some thoughts about the game, about suspects and innocents, I'd be very happy.

Gaspar: Gaspar is another player that I can't read very well. I remember a lot of people saying that he's easy to read and see when he's a wolf or not, but I can't see exactly how. So I'd like to hear people's opinion on Gaspar (I've seen opinions going on both ways, so I'd like to see the arguments behind them). And I'd like Gaspar to give more detailed opinions. He seems to be very insightful and very perceptive, so his reads on others could really give a good read on him.

I agreed with gaspar on his critic against "likely innocent" posts, even though he voted for me to point it out. But his case against me wasn't only focused on proving this point, it was rather because he was suspicious of me. So i'd like to hear why you find me suspicious, Gaspar (your last post show me that you still suspect me)? Anything you want me to answer? Any comments on these posts?

Twinkletoes89: Twinkletoes is also a player that I find hard to have a read. According to previous posts by Lewwyn and Meiz, he is supposed to be a risk taking player, with a lot of different ideas (anything would like to comment on that?). Here's the posts from TT on the beggining of day2:

Reading a bit more, I'd say that I don't really have any concrete suspicions yet, but a few people are troubling me a little bit.

I can see why people are looking at Erebus. When I was reading what I had missed, his early posts today just seemed to stick out at me. I can't explain it too well but his talking about the vig kill set off my wolf alarm.

Sareln is another person who is making me suspicious. Picking on Jkaen is the 'easy target', his explanation of his move to Uberfish isn't really very convincing and with Lewwyn dying overnight, he was one of the only people who seemed to maybe have some issues with him.

Meiz was the other who seemed to have problems with Lewwyn and maybe he was getting to close to the bone with him (and Sareln) and so they silenced him before he could get traction? I would also say that I have the impression that his posting so far has been more 'parroting' than original though, normally quoting someone else and agreeing with them or developing their ideas'. Would be a pretty good way of covering his behind.

I'm prepared for any of them to counter me and prove me wrong, as none of my suspicions are yet strong enough for me to vote for them but they are the ones sticking out right now.

There was no certainty as they were suggestions with question marks. I mentioned Lewwyn dying overnight, not being eaten. Whether he was eaten or vig-killed, my best guess is that he was taken out by someone taking issue with what he was saying.

The two people who had expressed those issues were Meiz and Sareln, so they become suspicious because of that reasoning. One of them may prove to be the vigilante instead but their issues with him and then him dying suggest that at least one of them may well have been involved.

I am of the opinion that they are both players who are too savvy with the game to have made such a stupid mistake with a vigilante shot.

I've had my fill of trying to role-claim in WW games as I have enough people who seem to suspect me already without giving them more ammunition. I am a humble villager and nothing more.

Serdoa,

I do see your points about zakalwe and I do also have an odd feeling about him that I can't quite put my finger on. However, given I had a similar feeling about him for quite a while in my other game, I am hesitant to act on it as I was wrong the last time. His style in playing is always pretty similar, he puts himself out there and tries to lead discussion. With a reputation like that it is one of those problems - he is well practiced at it so could use the same tactic even as a wolf & people would notice, but if he is innocent he is playing as he always does so ends up semi-suspicious early doors until he (normally) proves himself.

He possibly comes up worst from looking back at the initial reaction to uberfish's gambit

He was first to say that lynching him, innocent or not would be helpful. I also supported that, but he then attacked me for saying it whilst 'forgetting' he said it first. In a hilarious twist of irony, he even said in his suggestion of lynching that 'I'm sure Twinkletoes will agree' and then attacked me for, in essence, agreeing!

He was (I believe) the only one who, when the first bandwagon started, suggested explicitly that the vigilante should kill him and they go after someone else - perhaps trying to capitalise on the momentum to get a wasted vig kill (not needed in the end unfortunately) and perhaps take out another villager at the same time.

Its not good, but its not execution-damning either. I just am really uncertain on him and an uncertain vote is not a good thing to throw out there. I still think zak is closer to innocent than guilty right now.

I see a lot of hazy semi-suspects and noone really standing out yet. Right now I would advise us all that unless something really damning/incriminating comes up, we should look on any bandwagon forming with suspicion. We must make the most of the time we have to delve further and discuss things to try and clear things up if we can.

Uberfish's gambit caught a lot of us (if not all of us) on the hop and I think that it may have perhaps managed to confuse people (and hopefully wolves) into posts that may not have been totally what they were wanting to say, with such an early chance for wolves to get a mislynch on a player whose skills are quite respected.

While there isn't anything hugely incriminating I can see yet at first or second read, I think some more people looking and discussing could draw out some things from it or at least have as much of an understanding as we are unable to get.

My read is that this posts all have pretty "feet on the ground" theories. Erebus was a pretty suspected target all around, his comments on Zakalwe are ambivalent and the argument that the wolves killed X because he suspected Y and Z is also very simple. According to what I've read about the way TT acts, this is quite the contrary, in my opinion. But it could be explained by lack of proper time to think about the game.

After that, TT was away for most of the day. He returned close to the deadline and posted this:

Right guys, I'm in just in time to make at least some contribution to today.

I'm not checked out of the game, and for the next day period I should be a lot more active in my 2 lesser days of work.

I've read through the stuff I've missed as best I can and this is what I currently think.

I think Erebus is much more likely to be a noobish villager (possibly even a noobish vigilante?) than a wolf. He started off suspicious with his early vig talk but now I think he's really trying to make up for some perhaps foolish posts and his posts make me feel like I did when I was desperately trying to convince zak in the last game when people were making their minds up about me.

If he turns out to be a wolf, I'm not too proud to not accept that i'm wrong.

I am trying my best to keep at arms length from Meiz right now as it seems he has pretty much blinkered down onto me now and its always easy to just vote for him because he's wanting to lynch me when I know that I am a villager.

Therefore I'm going to vote for catwalk as I am convinced enough by Erebus to look elsewhere. I think that in the posts I have just read, he was starting to really push towards Erebus and then when the vote looked pretty sorted he made a typical post of 'Are we sure about this, maybe if he was a wolf someone would be trying to save him?' which after posts of seeming conviction, seems a little off and is perhaps trying a bit of pre-emptive cover if Erebus proves innocent.

That's the best I can come up with with the deadline so close

Which is pretty much the opposite of what I'd have expected him to do based on his previous posts. Of course, he could have changed his mind, especially since a lot happened between the posts (and he said he dislikes bandwagons on one of his first posts and the votes on Erebus can be read as a bandwagon - he also said that none of his early day suspicions were strong enough). But that doesn't change the fact that it's hard to connect the early posts with the later post.

After that, he joined Serdoa on the try to save Erebus, changing his vote from catwalk to scooter near the end of the day. This is pretty much in line with the risk taking personality that he's supposed to have.

So, in my mind, there's two interpretations of TT play so far. Either his play is completely wolfish or it's completely villager. And I have a hard time deciding which is it. So, TT is a player that I really want to hear opinions on. What do people think about my take on him? Does it make sense for you? I'm inclined to think his play is wolfish, but it's hard for me to go against someone who I can hardly make a read and from who I have no standards.


Anyway, now it's time to place a vote. My top suspects are Sareln, Scooter and Twinkletoes. My vote will be on Sareln because he's the one I'm more sure of right now. I really need the opinion of others on scooter and twinkletoes, though.

After these players, my suspects are Gaspar and Catwalk, with Injera more distant. But i feel right now that lynching these players would be a longshot and that worries me.

Feel free to ask me questions and criticize my thoughts. I know they are very subjective thoughts, but I feel it is the best I can present right now. Hopefully they'll be worth something. I'm going to bed right now, but I'll try to answer any questions and give more thoughts tomorrow.

[Roland]

(Argh! I did it again! Serves me right for trying to craft a post with multiple tabs when it's almost 12:30 at night. *sigh* I guess that's just going to be a thing for me this game - screw up one post every day throughout the whole game. Anyway, here's the whole thing.)

1. Why exactly do you think I am guilty?

Initially I felt you were just skimming along. As others have said, I didn't get the feeling you were really trying to help the Village. Granted, it didn't scream "Wolf!" to me, but it was suspicious, for the same reasons Sareln drew my suspicion (I may be forgetting one or two others). Obviously, much has changed since then. I've tried to look at your posts through your eyes - the eyes of someone who came into this game unexpectedly - and for some reason it just didn't fit. I fully admit this may be personal bias (I find it difficult to empathize with someone who doesn't care about the game), so I tried to remove that as best I can. What I take away from some of your more "suspicious" moments (and not all of these made me suspect you) was:
- Uberfish: you honestly didn't consider uberfish as being very serious. This I really didn't find suspicious, but plenty of others did. I suppose it shouldn't surprise anyone that zakalwe (correct me if I'm wrong) jumped all over this while I barely glanced at it.
- Meiz: throughout your interactions with Meiz I got the feeling you (both!!!) were saying "You're just ignoring my arguments!" "That's because you're ignoring mine!" Meiz just seemed to be coming across as actually trying more, while you did seem more dismissive.
- Overall: as with my comments regarding Meiz, you just seemed rather nonchalant as a whole throughout the first... 1.5 Day cycles? so it really was just frustrating to watch you post, and essentially say virtually nothing IMO. During the night, however, I took a step back and tried to look at you without bias. Your nighttime posts (for once I'm agreeing with zakalwe here) seemed... much better than any of your other posts, but the change actually seemed natural. It didn't seem forced, if that makes sense. It struck me as a Villager who, up until then really didn't care much what happened, suddenly found that he did in fact care - and realized if he didn't do something soon he would be partly responsible for the Village losing due to his inaction.

As you can see, it wasn't any one specific thing. There were no actions that really stood out as completely 'Wolfish to me. Rather, your actions earlier seemed lazy, whereas now they seem more serious. It's like you've finally decided this game is worth playing, and you're doing you very best to play it. That doesn't strike me as a 'Wolfish thing to do, and I don't really get that sense from you very much (at least at the moment).

2. What can I do to prove my innocence? I have no idea really, but at this point, I'm willing to do anything.

Pardon me for saying this, but don't bullshit me. "Woe is me" doesn't suit you. What I see that you can do to help yourself is exactly what you're doing - try. Put the effort in, and make us believe you truly want to help the Village. Your posts in the last... 12ish hours? have done more in that regard than anything that came before. Keep that up, and I think you'll do well to persuade people of your innocence.

I've watched this phenomena and laughed about it and even made fun of it as a wolf, but it's considerably less funny now that I'm a villager dealing with it.

Welcome to our world. :neenernee

Does anybody have any opinions on this? Should I instead change tacks and go on an aggressive rampage, so we can see how people react?

I don't see how you going on a rampage is going to solve anything. The one thing I've always respected about you is your analytical nature and your logical approach to problems. The fact that you often get blinders, and can be too stubborn to know when you're wrong, and that leads you to use those gifts to plow through to the wrong conclusions... well, let's just say I'm not too fond of that bit. :neenernee I think if we lost one of the more articulated voices and sharper minds, we'd be worse off than worrying about if a few quiet 'Wolves are hiding in your wake. I'm fully confident we can (and will) spot them - I just think we've been looking in the wrong places so far.

@Gaspar. When you check in, I'd like to hear your take on Scooter. Do you want to punch him in the face?

Not Gaspar, but since he and I generally react with the same sort of revulsion towards 'Wolf scooter (and the same response), I'll say so far the only thing that's made me want to punch him is the vibe I got from earlier that he didn't care very much. I don't get that vibe anymore. Make of that what you will.

Ultimately, I don't think me clamming up in fear of inadvertently leading another mislynch serves any purpose. This place is too quiet as it is. I'll put a vote down for Twinkletoes, because he's one of the players who haven't convinced me of his innocence.

How has Sareln proven his innocence in your eyes more than Twinkletoes? I ask this out of curiosity (to get a better picture of your thoughts overall), and as someone who probably falls exactly opposite of you: I suspect Sareln more than Twinkletoes. (Just now reading scooter going after Sareln, too. Interesting.)

I can see your point about scooter's posts with regard to uberfish. I felt the same, although it didn't make me suspect him very much based solely on that. His vote itself didn't strike me as suspicious, but his explanations up to that point seemed lacking, IMO. On Erebus, however, I felt he did a slightly better job. I won't say it was perfect, but it did feel like he was trying more - even if it was only to appeal to Meiz, and anyone who might be following Meiz's thoughts. Just my personal observations. His post against Sareln just before your posts here is an even further improvement, so I'm less inclined to suspect as much as I did yesterday.

[quote=Injera]I would really like to hear the answers to this as well. I would also like to hear from the voters who switched on to scooter why they weren't interested in joining the vote on Catwalk, who was the second highest target.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but my answer is simple: I tried to push people towards Catwalk all day, because I was becoming more and more convinced he was guilty. Very few people followed, but I was determined to stick to my guns. When Catwalk made his post about whether Erebus might actually be innocent, I at first took it as a sign of a 'Wolf trying to build a preemptive defense (knee-jerk reaction). Then zakalwe came along and pointed out to Catwalk that if we were going to start suspecting people who pushed the Erebus bandwagon, both he and Catwalk would be top among that group. Somewhere around then, or maybe a bit later, I started to realize I was getting a little zealous over Catwalk. It reminded me of zakalwe, to be honest - and that made me stop and think. Did Catwalk actually have a point? Was he not simply trying to tag along with my defense of Erebus? Was I really so sure about my suspicions, or did I just want him dead because he crossed me? Etc. etc. etc. By the time Serdoa came around with his scooter proposal, I realized there was minimal time left (I was bouncing between here and playing World of Tanks - even alt+tabbing out while still alive and playing in the game just to follow the developments - and I had just died[b] when I saw Serdoa's proposal; I was lucky I even saw it in time). I made a snap decision: I knew that if no one else had followed me onto Catwalk up until that point, no one else was going to. I knew Serdoa held more sway over the Village than I did. I knew I wanted to save Erebus if I could, because he just reminded me of myself from WW2 way too much to let him die without a fight. I already suspected scooter a bit - not enough to vote for him on its own, but to save someone I highly thought was innocent by lynching someone I thought just might be guilty? Yeah, I decided to take that bet, and just barely got the post out (I almost sent it off without making the text red I was trying to fast). In the end, it did no good, but I thought it was worth a hail-mary shot trying to save someone I felt was innocent by burning someone who had a bit of suspicion on them. Had it been Sareln instead of scooter I would have done the same thing. I'm not sure if I would have done it if it was Jkaen, and probably not if it was Twinkletoes, but for scooter or Sareln I would have.

That turned into a much longer description than needed... I need to work on that. :neenernee TL:DR - I was willing to trade a likely innocent for a possibly guilty.

Question for Roland and Twinkletoes:

Why did you guys vote for Catwalk, stick with it for awhile, and then jump to me at the last second just because Serdoa did it, while neither of you ever expressed any real suspicion of me before that moment?

See above.

Also, I forgot to mention my initial reason for suspecting you, which was your reaction to Uberfish, stating that his post was an obvious joke. Again, not saying it's a stellar argument, but I did find it suspicious. But I believe several others also thought it was an obvious joke; Roland, Meiz, Jkaen, and Injera, and maybe others too? Given that so many people didn't take Uberfish seriously, I guess I'm now less inclined to see it as a reliable indicator for anything. Uberfish said the same thing himself.

Joke was the word I borrowed from someone prior, but it really wasn't the right word to convey what I was trying to say (chalk it up to lazy writing on my part). Other than that, though, yeah I wasn't surprised by uberfish's ploy, because I [b]thought it was a ploy. What I tried to figure out was the intent of the ploy, and when uberfish explained that it sounded like Villager uberfish - not 'Wolf uberfish.

Honestly, I can see why scooter got flak for being "repetitive" about arguments against uberfish, but really it struck me as unfair that he was getting flak for voting uberfish - especially when both zakalwe and Catwalk didn't hesitate to pounce on him, and Twinkletoes expressed the very same vein of thinking (lynch him no matter his alignment). If anything, I felt you three (zakalwe, Catwalk, Twinkletoes) all should have been on that board in uberfish's place, but I digress. I never read any of your actions in that regard as 'Wolfish, just stupid Villager play. :neenernee

One thing that has me thinking right now is that both (assuming Lewwyn was eaten) of the the wolf victims were folks who were laying pretty low. This makes sense; they've targeted villagers who were quiet in search of power roles. Here's the the thing, though: what lets them differentiate MNG from, say, a TT, Sareln? Or Ichabod or scooter? Either they got really lucky last night, or there's some wolves in there that made their choice easier.

I'm going to answer this with my own thoughts, but I'm very interested in what you have to say Injera. Throughout almost the entirety of this game you've struck me as Villager, and I must say the more time goes on the more I think you're going to be one hell of a good Villager in any future WW games - and this one. What are you thinking that you're not telling us here?

As for my thoughts, Twinkletoes and Sareln have garnered suspicion already, and for me only Twinkletoes has really done anything to assuage that (although I think there are a few people who don't feel the same as I do - as to be expected). Mr. Nice Guy... I don't know. Maybe I'm biased, but I never really saw any reason to suspect him, so you'll have to forgive me if he doesn't immediately spring to mind as someone under suspicion. Maybe it's just because I know him and his playstyle so well, and everything that made people jump at him was 100% pure Mr. Nice Guy, tried and true. You could have put a gun to my head and told me if I got the answer wrong you'd pull the trigger, and then asked me if he was a 'Wolf or a Villager; I'd have said Villager. In past WW games the 'Wolves have always gone after the people that were least suspected, and/or confirmed Villagers. The impression I've gathered as a Villager is that it leaves the Village with the least amount of information, whereas leaving someone who's even slightly suspected alive means there's that much more chance they'll be mislynched - and thus won't need to be eaten. Occasionally they seek out some of the more vocal "innocents", but it seems the usual tactic is to seek those who are quieter and/or acting "odd", because that's usually an indication of someone hiding something - and since the 'Wolves all know who each other are, it's likely to make them think that person is a Village power role.

Don't forget, too, that the 'Wolves still have their Devil, so it's entirely possible they got a lucky scry on Night 1. It's doubtful (highly doubtful), but possible, especially since our Roleblocker was killed by the Vigilante on Night 1 - and thus wouldn't have gotten to use his powers (if I understand the rules correctly - I read that part 3 times and it still confused me). Of course, the way this game has been going I suppose I shouldn't discount the idea that they did, in fact, get a lucky Baner scry on Night 1, but that's just a little too much good luck for the 'Wolves for me to accept without cursing a whole bunch. :neenernee

This is the other thing I was wanting to address. Why MNG?? He wasn't exactly a highly trusted villager, so it only seems logical if they had some degree of confidence that he might be the baner. A previous scry is possible as well, but IMO, role-blocking the baner and letting him live seems a bit more logical to me, but maybe I'm nuts there.

But really, I haven't seen any hints of MNG being baner (admittedly I haven't been looking, but did anyone see that coming??)... Has anyone had any theories for who seemed like a baner? I guess I figure if anyone had a serious guess at the baner and that person is still alive, it could be a sign, as the wolves surely would be more thorough than the rest of us. I've had no idea ever honestly, but if someone does, it'd be useful info.

See my comments to Injera. As for "seeing that coming", no I certainly did not. I'd like to think I probably knew MNG better than any of you, and the only thing that stuck out to me was he was unusually quiet. I chalked it up to him being somewhat busy (because he has been consistently so in the past, and his "check in" times were always very erratic), and left it at that. To be honest, I'm still baffled by all the people claiming to know who the Vigilante is. This is part of the reason why I've always said I'd suck as a 'Wolf - I've NEVER been good at guessing power roles (Baner, Seer, etc.) Almost every game I've been in the 'Wolf kill on a power role caught me by surprise, because I've never picked up on any of the clues even some of the Villagers got. Meiz is a perfect example: a few games back he was saved by Rowain as the bodyguard, because the 'Wolves thought he was the Seer (he wasn't). I still have absolutely no idea what "clues" they picked up on, and probably never will. So, yeah I didn't see MNG as the Baner, but I can sorta see why they'd choose to kill him. If you remove the more vocal innocents (zakalwe, Serdoa, Ichabod, myself), as they'd the most likely to garner protection by the Baner, you're not left with many who aren't suspected. Myself, I can think of Injera, Gaspar, and... well, Mr. Nice Guy obviously. Catwalk and Sareln had way too much heat on them to be considered kill targets unless they believed they were the Baner, while Jkaen would be best left for a modkill if he's a Villager (or he's a 'Wolf), and Twinkletoes still has enough people suspicious of him to be in the same boat as Catwalk and Sareln.

That's my take on it, anyway, but I've never played a 'Wolf so I couldn't really tell you from past experience.

1. I had nearly the same thought as Injera re: MNG kill. I feel very comfortable there are multiple wolves in the Jkaen, Sareln, Ichabod, scooter, TT group, both based on this piece and my general reads. Gun to my head I'd say TT and Sareln, but there's a lot of day between now and making a decision.

What the hell makes you suspect Ichabod? I know he's somewhat quiet, but he's always been that way to my recollection. He's always posted very high-quality posts, however, and every game I've been in with him he's earned my respect throughout as one of the better Villager players. I remember my first game with him thinking he was a little wishy-washy, or always trying to play it too safe, but as time went on (later games) either he grew as a player or I learned to tell the difference between someone who's afraid to commit, and someone who sees things differently than others. Probably a bit of both, but I think mostly the former.

I can understand Sareln, scooter, and Twinkletoes, but Ichabod strikes me as just name-dropping for the sake of it. You might as well add Serdoa, zakalwe, and me just to make your list look better, for all the good it does helping us to catch 'Wolves. As a matter of fact, you might as well put my name in there right next to Ichabod - I'm that confident in his status as a Villager, because not a single post he's made has given me any reason to doubt that, and I'd be willing to step in line to defend him because of that.

Now, since then, the tone of his posts has sounded like a villager who realizes he messed up and is floundering to fix it, which doesn't sound to me like wolf scooter at all. I'd expect wolf scooter to be more aggressive in the face of challenges. Let's see how he behaves the rest of the day before we commit to letting him off the hook, however.

This. Oh my F-ing god THIS. I remember scooter from WW2. The whole game - THE WHOLE GAME - it was like he was taunting me. I KNEW damn well he was a 'Wolf, but I couldn't prove it because no one would believe me. It was maddening! What's more, at some point it shifted completely opposite to EVERYONE knowing he was a 'Wolf, and yet no one would do anything! THEY REFUSED TO KILL HIM! I'm sorry for the caps, but I want to convey without question just how infuriating it was to play against scooter as a 'Wolf. That's why I chimed in when Gaspar said 'Wolf scooter makes him want to punch scooter in the face. It makes me want to punch him in the face, and then poor gasoline over his head, just so Gaspar has a place to put out his cigarette when he's done. :neenernee

*ahem* Nothing personal scooter. I'm sure you're a great guy in real life! *cough* Moving right along....

@Roland: I don't mean to be rude, but I'd like if you could make your posts a bit more centered on certain topics each time. I feel like your posts are a big flow of conscience and it seems you forget to tell us how exactly they are connected and how exactly they make sense. I have to say that it's been hard to read your posts, because of their lenght and lack of center. I want to hear what you have to say, but the way it is right now, I can't make much of it.

Erm... well, either you'll love this post or you'll hate it (probably both). :neenernee

Ichabod, I don't know if you know how to be rude, so don't worry about that. Yes, I write very stream-of-conscious. Yes, it must be hell to try and read, especially as someone whom English is not their primary language. I've been trying to be better about that this game (although your comments here make me think I've been failing horribly ). Part of the problem, I think, is I have to catch up on an entire day's worth of American posts by the time I get home from work, and then when I get up in the morning there's a whole day's worth of European posts for me to catch up on, so by the time I get home from work again I have to slog through the entire thread and quote each piece I want to comment on. It makes for a very long post in and of itself (and even this post has taken me well over an hour to craft), and that combined with my writing style / thought process probably doesn't help matters any. I'll see what I can do in the future, but really I'm not sure how I can change it short of cutting out the bulk of who and how I am - and that would only lead to people suspecting me for not being me.

If there's ever any specific things you want to ask me, just call me out in the thread with it and I'll answer as best I can. Otherwise... I'm at a loss as to how to address you and improve my communication to you (and it's not just you, so don't feel singled out). I'm willing to try, I just don't know where to begin.

<snip>

My first reaction ("throw everything out and start over") was to scream at you. Having read through your posts, I only have two things to say.

1) I would have said Sareln and Jkaen as the two inactives, but meh. Personal tastes.

2) Best. Gaspar. Post. EVER. (To be honest, I never knew you even had it in you. Normally I barely see you do more than grunt like a caveman and go "HULK SMASH!" :neenernee )

Ok then, am I finally caught up? Yes? Good. I have nothing further to add on my own at the moment, so I'm ending this here. (Oh please don't let my computer freeze up again!)

[zakalwe]

How has Sareln proven his innocence in your eyes more than Twinkletoes?

He hasn't, really, I just know that he sucks at projecting innocence, so I'm holding TT to a slightly higher standard. Though Sareln mentioned something earlier: in WW5, Gaspar did a very good job of framing Sareln by creating a link between them before he died. I thought yesterday that Erebus was trying to frame Sareln, but he wasn't. I cannot really see who else may have been trying to put him in a bad light with poor reasoning. So this time, it seems like it's all his own doing.

I do remember he made the same strange argument for switching votes in WW5 and here; protection against late swings, which seems very anti-village. So that is at least one example of where he seems to be in character, and could be a villager repeating the same mistakes he has made before. Ultimately though, if the only thing in I can find in his defense is that he is acting suspiciously, I'm not going to hesitate all that much about lynching him.

TT is definitely playing differently than he did in WW1. In WW1 I obviously suspected him very much, so I certainly suspect him less here. But maybe that is because he is now playing more like the way I want him to play. To stay in line with WW1, I would have expected more emotional play, more confidence in his own insights, and much more paranoia. (His first post in WW1 was basically: "Hi guys, I'm much more perceptive than the rest of you, and needless to say, I expect to be targeted by wolves and villagers alike.") Of course, WW1 is a long time ago, and we were all horrible noobs back then, but it's definitely a big change in playing style. I think I also changed my own style a bit since then, but that has been as a much more gradual process, over the course of 6 games.

BTW; that may be a reason why Serdoa finds me suspicious; I know (I feel it in my heart) that I am less emotionally attached to the game now than I used to be. MJW mentioned this after the previous game; the longer you play, the harder it becomes to really care, so it's harder to project emotion. He was saying this to explain why it was therefore also harder and more draining to play as a wolf, but I think it applies to villagers too. You just cannot expect a veteran player to get all that upset unless you really push his buttons or treat him very unfairly.

With the above in mind, looking at Scooter's reactions is interesting. Once he realized how close he was to getting lynched, he apparently reacted with frustration and a bit of introspection. He did not lash out in anger against his accusers. (Although that is exactly what he did on day 1, when he felt unfairly accused for sleeping while others were awake.) I find that consistent with him being a villager, although the reactions I'd expect to see might vary from player to player. I also agree that a wolf Scooter would probably be more inclined to push aggressively at this point, with victory within reach.