Terrain

[Catwalk]

I agree I got a bit carried away The argument about it being hard to remember is indeed important, and trumps other concerns. I do think there are good rationales for the changes, though. I'll try to come up with a revised model that's easier to follow.

[Catwalk]

Take 2! Yes, it's still radical and no, it's not final yet.
Approach:
1) Grassland and pathfinding is 1½
2) Roads are 1
3) Enchanted roads are ½
4) Forester gets movement bonuses for Forest (1½), Swamp (2) and Tundra (2)
5) Mountaineer gets movement bonuses for Hills (1½), Mountain (2) and Desert (2)
6) Swimmers move at ½ in rivers, 1 in the ocean

Rationale: I want forester and mountaineer to be more useful abilities, and I want to diminish the value of pathfinding a bit. Both forester and mountaineer have primary and two secondary terrain types they get bonuses for. The primary type gets MP cost of 1½, the secondary type gets MP cost of 2. I switched hills back to 3, same as forest, for sake of simplicity. This means that forest/swamp/tundra and hills/desert/mountains have identical movement stats for forester vs mountaineer. I'm reasoning that mountaineers are used to traversing inhospitable terrain where footing is difficult, hence they get the bonus in deserts as well. Foresters get the bonus in swamps because they're used to traversing heavy undergrowth, and in tundras because... Not sure really I'd like to maintain the symmetry of it (for sake of overview), but can still be swayed to a different end result. I really like forester and mountaineer being more useful.

Code:

Walk Frst Mntn Swim Sail
Grassland   1½   1½   1½   1½   -
Forest      3    1½   3    3    -
Hills       3    3    1½   3    -
Mountain    5    5    2    5    -
River       2    2    2    Â½    -
Tundra      4    4    2    4    -
Desert      4    4    2    4    -
Swamp       5    2    5    1    -
Ocean       -    -    -    1    1

[kyrub]

So much better. (both your post and your conception)

Comments:
I suggest you take your time to count tiles on a map. I guess that the forest and grassland tiles prevail equally, hills ones are second, mountain desert and ones third, swamps are scarce. A guess, remember, I might be wrong.

I also find that Pathfinding (compared to Forester) is all but useless. Try crossing a map only on grassland / forest. Quite easy. Adding swamps and tundra makes it too good. You'll get everywhere, pathfinding is unnecessary.

Summa:
Mountaineer << Forester =< Pathfinding.

I suggest toning down Forester.
(subject to tile counts on a map, not checked precisely)

[Catwalk]

Good points about tile frequency. Again, nothing set in stone yet and I won't commence implementing changes until there's a good result. Should be within a day or two, allowing for a release deadline of maybe next sunday? Will also give me to time to do a small number of balance changes, it won't be much fun testing a release that's essentially unplayable.

I'm uncertain if it's even possible to have different settings for pathfinding and road movement. Regardless, I'm leaning towards 1 MP for pathfinding, forester, mountaineer and swimmer and doing away with ½ points altogether (except for enchanted road). Will be easier for players to relate to and the benefits of mixing things up a little aren't that big. With your points about forester and mountaineer in mind, I suggest removing tundra from forester abilities. Also, cold blooded creatures thrive better in warm climates. How about swamp and desert both for swimmers? Makes lizardmen and nagas a little more interesting, and they need it.

Possible configurations (road, pathfinding, grassland, forester, mountaineer)
1) R1 - P1½ - G1½ - F1½ - M1½
2) R1 - P1 - G1½ - F1½ - M1½
3) R1 - P1 - G1 - F1 - M1
4) R½ - P1 - G1 - F1 - M1
5) R½ - P½ - G1 - F1 - M1

1 and 5 aren't possible if pathfinding is tied to roads. Out of the rest, I think I prefer number 3.

[kyrub]

Basic unit will have 2 MPs, right?
Then I am quite fine with model 3. I could try to give a little more incentive to roads: +1 MP (e.g. 1 extra move) as long as the stack spends its whole turn on the road perhaps? This is not big, but very good for slow units.

Swimmers in desert...
I think Mountaineer and Forester will get much better with the possibility to walk 2 tiles per turn with every unit (100% increase in speed against vanilla).

My take:
- Swimmers 1/2 rivers, 1/2 ocean shores, 1 deep sea. Allows sneak attacks along the coastlines, allows quick settler expansion, sometimes quick continent expansion. Pretty nice in my book.
- Forrester: forests only. With the amount of forest tiles, that will make them very very good, believe me.
- Mountaineers: hills and mountains. You may put desert in, if you find that wimpy.
- Pathfinding: everything 1 MP.
- Magic roads 1/2 MP.

[Catwalk]

Basic unit will have 2 MPs, right?
Then I am quite fine with model 3. I could try to give a little more incentive to roads: +1 MP (e.g. 1 extra move) as long as the stack spends its whole turn on the road perhaps? This is not big, but very good for slow units.

Swimmers in desert...
I think Mountaineer and Forester will get much better with the possibility to walk 2 tiles per turn with every unit (100% increase in speed against vanilla).

My take:
- Swimmers 1/2 rivers, 1/2 ocean shores, 1 deep sea. Allows sneak attacks along the coastlines, allows quick settler expansion, sometimes quick continent expansion. Pretty nice in my book.
- Forrester: forests only. With the amount of forest tiles, that will make them very very good, believe me.
- Mountaineers: hills and mountains. You may put desert in, if you find that wimpy.
- Pathfinding: everything 1 MP.
- Magic roads 1/2 MP.

Poikilotherms (cold blooded animals) succeed in some niches, such as islands and hot deserts, or distinct bioregions (such as the small bioregions of the Amazon basin

Lizards thrive in deserts, swamps and islands :neenernee But I will agree to your proposal, that will indeed make them interesting. Still subject to change later, but I'll go with it for the first release and see how it plays out.

The special road bonus sounds interesting, but won't it be really confusing for people? If it's practical, I might go with it. You may notice that in proposal 3 you get no bonus at all for putting a road on grasslands, not good.

[Catwalk]

Also, I'll ask again in case you missed it: Is pathfinding linked to the road modifier?

[kyrub]

Also, I'll ask again in case you missed it: Is pathfinding linked to the road modifier?

Yes. No. (I missed it. It is not linked.)

EDIT: deleted suggestion. Need to think more before I speak.

[Catwalk]

Then I'm leaning towards restoring ½ MP for roads and 1 MP for pathfinding, forester and mountaineer.

[kyrub]

Also, I'll ask again in case you missed it: Are you planning to use 2MP as a base for walking units (spearmen etc.)?


Looking at a real Arcanus map, I feel quite desperate. Grasslands + Forester = speed dominance. You will get anywhere, very quickly. Forests are omnipresent in big quantities, only few corners are somewhat inaccessible (if that word means you need 4 turns instead of 2 to get somewhere). Myrror map has actually bigget patches of desert and mountains, at least in the reference map I'm using.

Either:
- change forest frequency, more hills and deserts on Arcanus (unkown difficulty)
- or (I guess it'll be unpopular in Cat eyes) make foresters slow on grasslands, quick in forest (like elves). And before you protest, look on the map. The forest patches are massive, bigger than grasslands.
- another solution, give forester and mountaineer combat significance (+1 att, +1 def on forest, hill square)