[SPOILERS] - Too Much Information Thread

[TheMeInTeam]

Interesting analysis here, shame you didn't do it before the picks, although as you said it shouldn't make too much difference

The only civ I envy for their small advantage on opening here is Rome. It's eating me I didn't just take them 1st overall. Worst case I wound up with Genghis or Alex or a non-AGG.

Oh well. No crying over that. I think my civ is very viable and this choice certainly won't mean the game.

Edit:

One thing I need to consider is that I have AGG warriors. No, I'm not going to warrior rush anybody (the odds of that working are long indeed, and long-run benefit is questionable), but there's a mean trick I can pull.

Reading through player tendencies by sifting through other PBEM/Pitboss, I've come across a few situations where a scouting warrior caused teams to get nervous.

My test #6 (my favorite opening right now) calls for a warrior build after worker 1st. In my test runs with the fishing civ, however, I opened work boat ----> worker as it let me get the pig improved ASAP with the work boat first choice.

The thought here is simply to *scout* near someone's capitol with an early warrior. No war threat or anything in diplo, and even just say I'm scouting. Based on my tests there are quite a few windows where forcing another player to build a warrior sooner just to be safe would completely eliminate any turn advantage from a work boat start. Of course, if someone is foolish enough to not build defenses I might actually take the bait and snipe a city, but I'm guessing that as I get within 2-3 turns of attacking a capitol the civ in question will probably queue in a warrior that otherwise would have gone into worker or settler.

I'm set to get 3 warriors before 2nd city and might be able to spare one for these kinds of psychological shenanigans, especially since my micro plan allows me to get a warrior from cap to pig in a single turn (fishing before mining won, but that creates idle time of 2 turns. I have no better alternatives than road on that forest AFAIK and it does help my SW mobility some)...making it harder to threaten to pillage/choke me in turn (non-AGG warriors are at a serious threat head-to-head even, probably wouldn't have to commit to a 4th warrior unless they declare).

Obviously Rome is the best target for these shenanigans but the timing means I absolutely can't be choosy; I'm just going to metagame the first guy I bump into this way...even if we never cross swords all game . Just keeping everyone honest!

[TheMeInTeam]

Quick update, since nothing major occurred.

I snapped a screenshot of the demo screen. All of the opposing teams are working the fish tile, presumably training a warrior (bad) or fish boat (good), with bad and good being from *their* perspective in terms of early growth curve (IE if they build a warrior first then I come out ahead despite my tech).

During the opening turns I'm obviously going to keep my warrior close to the cap, but just south of where it was on t1 is a corn site I can settle that is 3 tiles away and allows for another culture choke. Unfortunately it isn't on a hill but not all cities can be. At least, however, I don't have to alter my micro plans too much...yet.

[TheMeInTeam]

T1 Demo:



Most people researching a tech with a pre-req (BW? Sailing? Probably BW. If they are opening fish boat first and have a tile comparable to my pig this is going to slow them down compared to a straight worker build after fish boat). Everyone is working a 3f tile (growing to 2)...maybe they intend to whip the fish boat or a worker? Though the lower GNP suggests not everyone going BW (at least not the fishing/ag civ and possibly another).

Land area (especially on following turns) confirms everyone has 3 water (lake!) tiles.

[TheMeInTeam]

Here we are t9:



I've already tentatively set 2 cities. C2 is somewhat obvious for its horse IMO. Once I get that hooked up I'll be hard to annoy with warriors, and I already have all the techs needed to build chariots. If I see anyone going military too slowly maybe a 1-2 chariot pot shot is in order but right now I'm thinking that isn't in the cards. 1N gets horse sooner by a good margin but also loses a FP and the hill defense bonus, which are both nice right now. City 2 is also a better long term bur site but I'll need to run a test save further to determine if that's worth the cost of moving palace + anarchy on that setup. Maybe it isn't.

In other news, I've updated the test save to t9 to run some sims on these 2 new cities to evaluate the returns of settling 1 or the other first as well as worker micro. Once I've run some tests I'll update with those.

Demographics:



Now here we have divergence. Of course the fishing start guys opted to grow mostly...but whats with the power change? I'm thinking it is from someone grabbing bronze working (8000 soldiers) + pop 2 (1000). At any rate I have a 2nd warrior on the way (lets city grow and allows pop 2 work boat construction sooner, will switch work boat as soon as possible) and should be able to defend myself aptly. I don't think BW is a good call unless someone has a weak 2nd food resource (pigs are too strong for chopping to compare)...a chop only yields 13 hammers and a 6 yield tile like my pig can nearly reach that in 2 turns...without continual additional chopping. Do they not have anything to do despite mining? Or is the plan to whip out a worker? I can see an expansive worker whip...I'd be surprised if any axe action reaches me prior to hooking up horse even in currently planned spot and nobody can choke a flat horse tile off me easily because I'm aggressive. Does EXP boosted worker whip beat out working a good tile sooner, or did they give the guy doing this an AG start such that he can simply reach his 2nd food tech immediately? Interesting.

Perhaps the single most baffling thing here is "rival worst" pop. That guy chose a fishing start tech and then opened with either a worker or settler. That means he either didn't have fish/seafodd in his BFC (doubtful, given uniform land area meaning we all have 3 tile lakes in BFC), he opened worker or settler first for some unknown reason, or he's working wonky tiles while building a work boat and is about to grow. Whatever. I'll take it, that guy no longer has an advantage over my opening despite his starting techs, though I still have plenty of time to screw up.

[Thoth]

City 2 is also a better long term bur site but I'll need to run a test save further to determine if that's worth the cost of moving palace + anarchy on that setup. Maybe it isn't.

Anarchy? Moving the palace costs (a lot of) hammers, but it doesn't cost any anarchy turns.

(thanks for the update BTW )

[TheMeInTeam]

Anarchy? Moving the palace costs (a lot of) hammers, but it doesn't cost any anarchy turns.

(thanks for the update BTW )

Theres no point to moving the palace without running bureaucracy . If I don't cottage the capitol bur is only worth an additive +50% hammers instead of a multiplicative +50% commerce, and is high upkeep...pretty hard to justify that especially if it looks like I can take lib (no gimme in this crowd but still).

So I have 3 options:

1. No bur
2. Bur in original capitol
3. Move palace + bur

I'll have to look at it carefully. Anarchy is no joke on quick speed. That alone might cost me ~500 worth in output by the time that rolls around.

[TheMeInTeam]

Video update with some micro planning!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFofxeBHt6Y

[regoarrarr]

When I first loaded your video up I saw it was 42 minutes and I thought "That's got to be a misprint, right?"

.....

42 minutes later.....

I know you can't get too far in with these test saves, but I was surprised to not see you try Pottery in before Writing. You're expansive + flood plains for cottages, and of course not to mention saving beakers.

The downside is of course not being able to expand borders at the 2nd city to get the horse, so you'd need to figure out something there. Would a 3rd city up north (as you mentioned later in the video) get the horse in your border?

[TheMeInTeam]

When I first loaded your video up I saw it was 42 minutes and I thought "That's got to be a misprint, right?"

.....

42 minutes later.....

I know you can't get too far in with these test saves, but I was surprised to not see you try Pottery in before Writing. You're expansive + flood plains for cottages, and of course not to mention saving beakers.

The downside is of course not being able to expand borders at the 2nd city to get the horse, so you'd need to figure out something there. Would a 3rd city up north (as you mentioned later in the video) get the horse in your border?

Yes it could. I'm considering it.

IMO there are some issues that push me to writing before pottery:

1. City #2 has 2 good tiles to work before the FP, and an early cap of 4.
2. Library gets a pop and the city needs one
3. Some early GPP makes some sense...either this city or capitol (depending on whether I want bur later) will benefit from the early academy
4. IMO going writing first will overtake the cottages en route to mathematics and a happy cap booster...even factoring beakers saved. Worth a test though.
5. I have plenty of food in these early cities and then some.
6. Don't forget tile improvement timings. With slavery I can whip off 2-3 improved tiles and then run specs in the early goings, allowing me to put more cities on improved specials with fewer workers.

#6 sounds like a strange point but grinding out workers on improved specials turns into a production advantage.

I do see your point on the cottages though, because that city is the only viable cottage city in sight until IW to clear jungle and it's really the only one I could develop in time for bureaucracy. I'll definitely test it when I get closer.

Essentially cutting cottages here (although pre-math or that fur it's only 2 cottages :/) trades some later research potential for some production potential + slight early research advantage (I think). The expansive granary is a much bigger draw though IMO I need to get a cap booster for it to really shine (right now I want workers, settlers, military). Math makes a lot of sense for me for the UB to that purpose as it's a currency pre-req, a construction pre-req (should be rock solid defensively with that even vs prats, if I make it there), and if that jungle land has good luxuries a calendar pre-req too.

I'm definitely going to run test saves at the ~t25 mark. I need to figure out my long-term plans for city #2. If I plan to move the palace there for bureaucracy I should cottage it ASAP but if not IMO cottages can wait. On a crazy good land quality map like this I can probably skip cottages mostly and work off of specs + mines (early game build wealth grass mines are crazy, 2 food for 6 output puts them in rep spec territory, but without the GPP...and while cottages will break them eventually it actually takes a long time).

[TheMeInTeam]

Contact! From WarriorKnight:

Hi TMIT

As you may discover when you open the save, I have managed to find your glorious Ottoman empire. On behalf of the English, I'd like to say hi. May the future of our empire's be glorious and fruitful.

Greetings aside, how are you? I'm afraid nothing particularly interesting has happened in the English empire yet, but given how early it is I'm sure that will change someday.

Regards,
WK

And our response:

Greetings WarriorKnight!

Ottomans share the dull moments of the English for the time being, which isn't necessarily a bad thing as we hear rumors of something called "the borg", scantily clad animal-men, and mighty horsemen.

In a gesture of good faith between our peoples, I say that the ottoman empire has not met anybody else as of yet. Having not surveyed the land since I last played a turn, I'm afraid that's all I can offer for the moment.

Regardless, I look forward to fruitful engagements between our empires.

-TMIT

Not much going on in early diplo, especially before even playing a turn since contact. I do like to be prompt and forward with diplo though as that biases people towards cooperation (logically). In terms of diplo offers, neither side has given much. Although telling someone I haven't met anybody might seem like a free offer at first glance, mostly it's just a nice but very minor gesture; basically anybody can tell this from espionage percentages very quickly unless you focus. If WK takes that as a noob move from me all the better but I doubt I'll be fooling anyone with sandbagging, considering I was placed in the veterans game before I had a say . The comments about the other civilizations are fun! In doing so I get to build up a little paranoia about the stronger early game uniques. If this makes WK want to cooperate, all the better.

As it stands right now, depending on circumstances I'm considering signing a decent length NAP with WK to see if I can bait him into going wonders. I'd look like a great ally if I killed the person who takes advantage and declares on him too. Also from what I hear, mackoti likes mids so if someone denies that to Rome it would be terrific. Best of all would be some kind of agreement that results in WK getting wonders + NAP from me but I get more of the land between us. If he's willing to make that kind of trade I'd pull the trigger on it instantly no matter what wonder he pursues.

Whatever is fine though, the only thing I absolutely want to avoid is a forced military escalation. WK picked a peaceful trait combo with a late-game UU though so that shouldn't be TOO hard in theory. Resources that go into military do not go into tech or expansion and those things are better early on, as early military isn't likely to succeed. I will keep up decently in soldiers of course, but would much rather macro up production potential as long as I can get away with it.

To be honest, the civ that scares me the most in the OPENING turns is Plako's. A fast dog soldier could easily kill someone unprepared although they need to tech mining/bw to reach them, then build one, then send it so I can probably get horse hooked in time. They aren't the civ with BW at this point though so not too worried yet. After that, the obvious rome/carthage are more threatening, although carthage threat level plummets considerably if I go HA too. I think if I place cities well AGG spears should be fine however.