Master of Orion 1 unofficial patch

[Guiness]

You were able to open Zeraan's project as he sent it? Didn't work for me.

When I opened the .sln file, I got the error

The selected file is a solution file, but was created by a newer version of the application and cannot be opened.

Mmmm, wait a minute...lol, I wasn't opening it the correct way. I was using the toolbar folder icon, which is actually 'open file'. Under the file menu, there's an 'Open Project' choice, which works.

I've never opened a project that way, I always selected them from the start page!

[Zeraan]

Looks like we have a bunch of programmers here. I'm glad your problems were resolved, Guiness.

CRC calculations? Fun stuff, good luck with that! Yes, I don't want to help with that

Anyway, back on subject of MoO graphics. At work, they asked me to set a personal learning goal, and I decided on learning OpenGL. This was half a year ago, and I haven't started. I've been procrastinating it. Looking at reMoM project, I saw that it uses a C# library that basically wraps OpenGL so it'd be usable in C#. So I think it'd be a good opportunity for me to learn OpenGL, by re-writing MoO.

However, I can't do it alone. For one thing, I'm deaf, so I know nada about sound programming, I will need help in that field. Well, help might be an understatement, since I won't be doing it at all

If I get things rolling, how many of you are capable and willing to help out with this project? Kyrub, can you share your notes and discoveries in MoO exe, so that I can replicate its behavior? I just need to know how things work under the hood (spying, dice tosses in space/ground combat, etc)

[kyrub]

Zeraan, you seem to be a really nice person so I dislike to tell you a straight "no". As anybody here will confirm, I am as bad a cooperator as it gets. I never really understood the point of all those OpenXY games. Why replicate something that works nicely? What is your intention? Do you plan to reprogram the AI? Do you wish to improve the graphics? Do you wish to mod MoO?

-I am not a programmer and I like the dated graphics, so for me all these goals are short of appeal. I improve the AI from the assembler level (not very effective, but good enough for me). I could play a really good mod, but somehow all-open-games produce bad mods in thousands. Sceptical on all this, sorry.

So, what's the goal?
(And did you notice that you probably don't need my help at all? Many many well informed posts in RBO forums with exact formulas...)

[Iovan]

Other than better AI, tweaking a few things visually (for added options, correct version number, etc.) and maybe adding sound support for some midi music on the main screen (never was a fan of the silence). That's all I care for being done to MoO personally. Its graphics are more than fine to me and so is just about everything I didn't mention above.

I don't think you should be getting too ambitious right now Zeraan.

[Zeraan]

Zeraan, you seem to be a really nice person so I dislike to tell you a straight "no". As anybody here will confirm, I am as bad a cooperator as it gets. I never really understood the point of all those OpenXY games. Why replicate something that works nicely? What is your intention? Do you plan to reprogram the AI? Do you wish to improve the graphics? Do you wish to mod MoO?

-I am not a programmer and I like the dated graphics, so for me all these goals are short of appeal. I improve the AI from the assembler level (not very effective, but good enough for me). I could play a really good mod, but somehow all-open-games produce bad mods in thousands. Sceptical on all this, sorry.

So, what's the goal?
(And did you notice that you probably don't need my help at all? Many many well informed posts in RBO forums with exact formulas...)

I agree, MoO works nicely, and I love the dated graphics. I wouldn't change those.

The primary goal was to enable you to improve the AI. I read your posts, and you keep complaining about limited space/memory for improving the AI, particularly with researching technologies.

The secondary goal is fixing bugs that's not fixable through assembly editing.

I don't want to change the gameplay mechanics in any way, I love it as it is. I was thinking of providing you with an easier way of fixing bugs and improving AI.

If those goals aren't to your liking, then I don't see a good reason for starting this project.

[kyrub]

I don't want to change the gameplay mechanics in any way, I love it as it is. I was thinking of providing you with an easier way of fixing bugs and improving AI.

If those goals aren't to your liking, then I don't see a good reason for starting this project.

I feel really bad, now. My talks about MoO not having enough inner space were written long time ago. In fact, the exe file has as much space as possible. Since then, I have been working in spaces much tighter and less friendly than MoO.

That said, I could really use the LBX tool you are working on. I have been experimenting with a zoom out feature in Moo, which I already implemented in a test build. The maps are neat, but the stars remain too big, along with the nebulaes etc. Maybe if I could pack smaller images of them... There are other issues I am still considering as well.


The only thing from your idea I find intruiging is the AI improvement. I can and will improve it from inside, but this will always be a limited attempt. I love to do the "inside" job, but I see its ulterior failure to make AI into a great opponent. There are people, though, who are more than able to program a really good AI in a good language. A lot of things were said on these forums about @Whitemage, who teaches AI programming. If you really want to get this project going, I suggest you try to convince him or someone else. While I normally don't do it, I would provide you with the internal data on game proceedings, if you, Zeraan, find someone who is excellent at AI programming, who can instill the AI life in the program we create.

I would probably further cooperate on the project with suggestions. MoO has its big conception flaws: in diplomacy, in battle rules, in weapon systems etc.

(Then again, as I said, my knowledge is not big secret. It's all over the forums already.)

[VM]

If I can help in any way that is not actual time commitment, just ask me

Sadly I know nothing about MOO, but I still support your project idea.

[Zeraan]

I feel really bad, now.

Don't feel bad , I understand your concerns. Many people try to make a clone of MoO 1 or 2, but "better" resulting in a mess or an inferior 4x (my game excluded ), if it gets that far. If I do start this project, it would be identical to MoO as much as possible.

That said, I could really use the LBX tool you are working on. I have been experimenting with a zoom out feature in Moo, which I already implemented in a test build. The maps are neat, but the stars remain too big, along with the nebulaes etc. Maybe if I could pack smaller images of them... There are other issues I am still considering as well.

I've been busy at work, but maybe later today I can finish up the tool. I really hope that MoO will work with the repackaged LBX. Zoom out, eh? Kinda similar to the map overview, but where you can actually interact with planets and fleets?

The only thing from your idea I find intruiging is the AI improvement. I can and will improve it from inside, but this will always be a limited attempt. I love to do the "inside" job, but I see its ulterior failure to make AI into a great opponent. There are people, though, who are more than able to program a really good AI in a good language. A lot of things were said on these forums about @Whitemage, who teaches AI programming. If you really want to get this project going, I suggest you try to convince him or someone else. While I normally don't do it, I would provide you with the internal data on game proceedings, if you, Zeraan, find someone who is excellent at AI programming, who can instill the AI life in the program we create.

I would probably further cooperate on the project with suggestions. MoO has its big conception flaws: in diplomacy, in battle rules, in weapon systems etc.

For the AI programmers, I will look around and see if I can find one. The only caveat is that I need to have a working prototype of this project to attract their interest. They don't want to sit twiddling their thumbs while I get the project up and going before they can contribute to the project.

What conception flaws are you referring to? Most of your complaints were directed to the AI, but I might miss on some other posts. This is exactly what I had in mind for this project, fixing things that can't be fixed at assembly level.

I think we're on the same page, we both want to preserve MoO, and only give it some shining polish where needed. Since I need to learn OpenGL anyway, this will be the project where I can accomplish that. So this project is official now, I will start on it this week. I will start a new thread so this thread can get back on its original subject

[kyrub]

I think we're on the same page, we both want to preserve MoO, and only give it some shining polish where needed.

I actually changed that opinion. Don't get me wrong, I love the original. It is the last game I am still playing, casually. It should be preserved, AI improved etc. Go ahead with reMoo.

But improving MoO, for me, has become a task bigger than just "polish". The game has inequal starting conditions for AI and the human player. AI scouts always retreat when they encounter your scouts. Scout-blocking technique is crucial when playing impossible level. The game features a diplomacy system that represents a big disadvantage to AI. There are weapon systems that are all but useless. Torpedoes, anyone? And so on. This intruiges me: how would MoO feel if these design "flaws" are gone?

Sadly, when you start to change the game mechanisms, you end up with a mod. The game will not be the same. Scout blocking, AI's free colony ships, AI scared of war, all are important to "traditional MoO game experience". Therefore, I decided to stick as close as possible to the original with the unofficial patch. No feature breaks the old rules. I strongly suggest you do the same with reMoo, maybe with a few exceptions of your choice.


What I intend to do from assembly level (alone)
a) make a better AI (your AI will be better, eventually; I'll still do the mine, quickly)
b) make a MoO mod that will feature equal conditions, fair diplomacy system, changes to weapon systems and ship design. And a small bunch of new features (planned secretly so far) as an incentive.

[Zeraan]

So the gist of this whole thing is:
Your modifications to MoO will not change gameplay mechanics, keeping things roughly the same, but having AI play better.

ReMoO would take it a step further and address design issues and other problems, basically creating a version where the game's potentials are explored more deeply. But this would use the existing rules and gameplay mechanics, so it's still close to the original. For example, In DIPLOMAT.LBX, I noticed lots of diplomat text that aren't used. For example, if you bomb a race's planet, there's some messages decrying your bombardments of that planet. I've never seen those in-game before. I want to use all of those unused texts for diplomacy.

If those are correct, then I think it all sounds good.