Mod approval discussion wanted. Bugfix / Minor balance changes.

[Iustus]

I would be in favor all points. And/or slowly switching to Warlords after the big Warlords patch.

If we are going to have a RB sanctioned mod, I would encourage to have it include AI changes. This would not only keep the game fresh for some, but would provide quite a testbed for AI changes.

The downside of doing this is that we would probably want to make sure the mod was synced with each event. That is to say, the mod would have to be part of the download for each epic. (That way newer versions, bugfixes, etc would not be used to corrupt the event). This would be pretty easy to do. Just name the mod the same as the event before making the save game (eg, "RB Epic 12 Mod"), and then include it as part of the save game download. It would be slightly harder than just downloading a save file and opening it however. (It would be pretty easy to make an installer if desired).

An alternative would be to pick some longer update schedule (every 3 months, every 2 months, something), and make sure to tie each Epic to a specific version. This would be problematic, and would likely lead to people playing with the wrong version, which might be ok, but would invalidate some results.

I am for it, but it will likely not be a small effort. The first step is to decide on the feature goals. Then some people probably need to start testing with it for at least a few weeks. If AI changes are included, then it will be an ongoing thing.

-Iustus

[sooooo]

I would be against this, no offence meant to Blake. While all of the points would make the game "better", I'm not sure if there's enough of an improvement, or even anything which badly needs to be fixed, to have to install a mod to play RB events. I hate mods - don't trust the bastards. Whenever a new patch is released I always read about the game not working because of a mod, or when people install 2 mods that aren't compatible the game crashes, or mods that use up more ram than the core game. Also, I simply don't trust to mod makers not to screw something up, again no offense meant to Blake or whoever would make the mod. I don't play the GOTM events at civfanatics because they now require a mod to be installed. In fact, for the first event over there that they made the mod compulsory, the mod had a huge bug which ruined the event for some.

Points 1 and 2 don't bother me because I'm in the blissfully ignorant category and don't mind others getting a few more hammers/beakers from them. I've never found the need for point 3. Basically there would have to be a huge benefit to a mod to make me use it.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

I agree with sooooo on all accounts.

-Kylearan

[Blake]

What do you think of my original post then? Since sooooo seems to be talking about a compulsory mod (not mentioned anywhere in this thread) rather than a transparent "drop in custom assets" mod which is optional to use...

edit: okay orry for being so snide...

Since some people probably don't know. It's possible to simply place a new dll in CustomAssets and it then effects any games in progress - save game compatability is not effected, at least as long as the dll is well behaved. Now it's worth noting that it's impossible to tell if someone has done this unless it effects their game in an obvious way - for example if they made a dll that gives 1000 gpt, that'd be pretty obvious, but in terms of subtle things like the whipping fix, no-one would ever be able to tell from screenshots or saved game whether said fix had actually been used or not. That's how transparent such a mod is, it can't possibly mess up saved games or anything and there's no need to even load a mod.

Of course a mod can also be made to reveal that it is being used if that is deemed a desirable quality and of course it would also be possible to make it so you do need to load the mod as a mod and use a save saved with that mod, but that's not what I'm talking about and I hate those kinds of mods.

Sorry for being irate.

[sooooo]

What do you think of my original post then? Since sooooo seems to be talking about a compulsory mod (not mentioned anywhere in this thread) rather than a transparent "drop in custom assets" mod which is optional to use...

Oh, my apologies, I misread your post.

But if it's not compulsory, then we'd be playing 2 different games, right?

[Blake]

I've updated my last post with an edit.

Yes.
I counter the "two different games" thing on the basis that the mod results in impaired performance by closing down exploits - in other words, it's a voluntary handicap, much like a self-imposed variant is (since no self-imposed variant can make the game easier....). The only question then, is whether those who use the mod can be mature enough to not say "You only won because you're an exploiter!" and I suggest that anyone who cares that much about winning shouldn't use the mod - they should use and exploit 1.61 in all its ugly glory to gain every competitive advantage they can. However I don't think anyone really cares *that* much about winning here.

Now if you bring in points 4 and 5 then the game does become more substaniosnally different and that's why it's "higher than I'm willing to aim" and jesus christ my spelling is bad... uh yeah so that's why I'm not going to press at all for points 4 and 5 but I do welcome discussion on them - like a happy result for me, would be 1-3 being approved for any event and 4-5 for non-scored events only, or even 1-3 for non-scored events only, I mean having to suffer the whipping bug only some of the time is better than all the time.

I don't want to step on Sirian's toes here (or trample rough-shod over them as it may be) but I do think it's high time to press this issue.

[Atlas]

I don't want to step on Sirian's toes here (or trample rough-shod over them as it may be) but I do think it's high time to press this issue.

Blake I think that it is only natural to discuss this event around the time of a new patch. I don't want to speak for Sirian, but he has said many times that he does not support an official RB mod until the patching process has been completed. I personally like all the points 1-5, even 4 and 5, but I think we should wait and see for a month or two, for two reasons. First lets see how the patch changes affect the game, before we adopt them and second lets see if another expansion is planned. In two months if there are no glaring problems with the Warlords patch and no expansion news floating about- I say lets mod!

[Kylearan]

Hi,

What do you think of my original post then? Since sooooo seems to be talking about a compulsory mod (not mentioned anywhere in this thread) rather than a transparent "drop in custom assets" mod which is optional to use...

I would welcome any mod that makes CIV life easier by modifying the GUI. I'd love to use a mod that implements point 3) of your original post! Less tedium is always a good thing. This is similar to the other GUI mods already approved.

However, I'm strongly against mods that change game mechanics not being compulsory. The best thing about this tournament is that it allows people to compare different strategies in otherwise very similar games. There already are several things that make this comparison more difficult (RNG rolls for example), and I think we should avoid anything that makes our games even more different, and thus less meaningful to compare.

You say using this mod is similar to playing with additional variant rules. I think it would add more differences than before, as people would still add more variant rules on top of the mod. People play RB events with all kinds of additional variant rules, but most of them are not that technical in nature.

-Kylearan

[sunrise089]

I don't even know the mechanics of the whipping or tech overflow bugs, but I think this discussion is moving in a less-desirable direction when optional mods that effect gameplay are being discussed. The way I see things, the basic point of contention is whether or not problems with the game (no matter how small)that are correctable through a mod are severe enough to justify the hassle (no mater how small) of the mod being installed. I defer to the wisdom of the more experienced players as to whether or not such a mod is the way to go.

Optional mods however fall into an entirely different category. Blake himself said the mod would ammount to a small handicap for those who use the mod - I don't think it takes much examination to realize that is a terrible idea. It effectivly devides the community into two groups and makes comparisons between them difficult. In addition it creates problems deciding who the 'real' winner of a particular epic or adventure is, and even makes less experienced players like myself feel inferior since the good players had to handicap themselves in order to feel playing in an epic with me was worthwile. Honestly, the problem is either severe enough to require a mod or it isn't, but if it isn't, an optional mod isn't the solutiion.

[Blake]

Blake himself said the mod would ammount to a small handicap for those who use the mod - I don't think it takes much examination to realize that is a terrible idea. It effectivly devides the community into two groups and makes comparisons between them difficult.

1) The target market for this mod are the players who probably already handicap themselves by not exploiting the whipping bug.
2) Comparisons are already difficult in a game where dice rolls determine many things. The other day I played a game, I researched Mining, I finished my worker, I moved my worker onto a river grassland hill, I built a mine, the moment the mine completed (my first terrain improvement of the game) the governor started working it and it immediately popped a gold - the first improvement of the game, the first turn it was being worked, popping a freaking gold. No less than twice I've seen game where the player has popped Bronze Working from a hut followed by Iron Working. How the hell can you do a valid comparison when these things can happen? The answer is, you can't. We play the games for fun, and we compare them for fun, knowing that the comparison isn't really valid, but that it is fun.