Well met, our two warriors gaze upon each other's glory from hill to hill. I trust all is well early in the musical empire? As a sign of friendship, I offer that I have also met warriorknight, and that he came from my west/northwest (still 1 city for him as of me ending this turn). Possibly, you have met him as well. I'm open to an exchange of maps as well, though I'm betting we each have an idea of how the map looks already .
I hope for fruitful relations between our empires, such that we can spread early game glory and secure a strong position for each empire.
-TMIT
Again, trading minor information early for a hopefully good relations mindset. If he's met warriorknight the info is useless/harmless, but it's not a big deal even if he hasn't. Provided I mind defenses he shouldn't be looking at me as a snack and might want to cooperate early on. That would be useful. He has a 2nd city, and as per my micro planning video I have one now as well.
Expect another video in the next 1-2 days at most...I'm going to need to pick a technology to research next after bronzeworking (biggie decision between pottery and writing mostly). Having just finished BW, I DO get it in the originally proposed city #3, but I get it in my initial 8 if I settle that 1W which I will do once I can. I should be able to have axes under production well before t40 so I should be OK vs most things. That does drop the priority of the horse tile slightly but as it's still an excellent tile to work, I still need to figure out a way/concession to popping borders in that city.
I should also look to expand east, in Serdoa's direction, as it would make an offensive from him using mounted more difficult. There's a lot of space right now so I can do that without antagonizing him.
nice to meet you. I have not met him yet, though I did met mackoti - who was two cities. As you stated, we both should have a good knowledge of the map by now, so I take it I don't need to tell you where you'll find him? If I am wrong on that, he is to my southeast.
I also hope for fruitful relations between us. Therefore I would also like to inform you that many of those I played (or talked with at RB) got the impression I am aggressive when I was not. It seems to be in my writing-style due to not being a native speaker. So if you ever feel threatened or me being overly aggressive, please ask before you draw the conclusion that I'll attack you soon. Most of the time, it will simply be a misunderstanding. And with that out of the way, may I ask if you are interested in a NAP + border agreement? I don't mind the length too much right now (T60, T80?) and for the border agreement - well, we are only 12 tiles separated from each other, so that should be relatively easy to agree to as soon as I have found out where exactly we met (meaning if you are my southwestern, northeastern or northwestern neighbour - yes, that info about the map comes for free ).
Kind regards,
Serdoa
And my response:
Serdoa:
Yeah, mackoti is really laying into the whip it seems. I think we need to be a bit more situated before we can do a border agreement (not the least of which is figuring out precise locations of capitols/terrain mapping) so IMO let's table that for a bit. I'll give my word that I won't be taking a NAP and then settling far from my capitol in your direction or anything along those lines. If you'll do the same, then I feel a NAP would be very constructive to our empires...unless someone is totally pants-down early game wars seldom end particularly well for either side involved, so building econ and military only as needed makes sense.
My proposal is therefore a NAP until turn 60 with a renewal option built-in for another 20 after we sort out borders. I too don't expect that to be too difficult as this map is very choke oriented. If you respond with an agreement the NAP will be effective .
I believe I am to your west, unless your warrior has traveled in an odd pattern. If Rome goes into an elevated power level early we'll have to build more units and we'll need the trust generated by communication. Along with plako we're some of the better-equipped setups to defend vs prats, but still.
-TMIT
Okay, some analysis here:
1. Serdoa is concerned about his reputation, which is a good thing I suppose. That doesn't mean I won't be building troops if I notice a power level spike. In MP, it pays to keep one's guard up. Power level shifts will mean a lot more than wars in some ways. Still, if he turns into a dependable ally, that's great. I know better than to let any bias leak into my decisions. He and I are both trying to win here, and that might mean some coop.
2. Asking for up to t80 NAP is pretty long I suppose, and I really want to take him up on it once we sort borders (probably even longer). What I want to encourage here is a strong/long NAP with both Serdoa and Warriorknight. I want them to fight over wonders (indirectly) or split them, while I allocate resources into land/defenses (as needed). This will also make them juicier targets for Rome/Plako than an aggressive civ with copper (which I have). Serdoa's UU is most threatening to me IMO, even more than the prats. A long NAP will encourage him to take them elsewhere...maybe go pay plako a visit or something
3. I've been warned in this thread that team oledavy/mackoti are very strong players, and they have the best civ combo on this map. My language with both WK and Serdoa to this point is somewhat to produce fearmongering and divert attention to myself, but in large part that's genuine. They're good players and they have the best civ, and they're probably the favorite in this game right now. It makes sense to pay them some mind. Putting together an "us" vs "them" mentality is very useful in diplomacy and it should create relations that last a bit more than otherwise.
4. Despite my reputation against AIs, I don't like to backstab humans unless it is utterly critical to winning the game. Although these NAP (assuming WK takes one, which I expect with his civ choice) are intended to build a winning position for me, I'm sure they're looking at it that way too. If one of them out-plays the other and manages wonders + land, they could run away a bit. I'm gambling it won't happen before someone can interfere. We'll see what happens.
5. T60 NAP should get me 4+ cities with at least one front secure. That's huge.
If you are seeing this within a few hours of my post, then beware as it's likely still processing and might not be available just yet. Check back later.
I also initiated talks with WK fishing for more NAP, but he isn't biting:
Me:
WarriorKnight:
I'd like to give you a quick update on transpirings and keep an open line of communication.
I have met Serdoa, who is to my east/southeast. He and I have agreed to sign a NAP until turn 60 and have begun border settling discussions. I'd like to do the same with your fine empire, as Serdoa has pointed out and I have confirmed through my own scouting that we all seem to have mirrored land (2 cow plots north of the capitol, corn next to a lake to the south, whales, etc)...which means we can predict the locations of a lot of resources as we continue scouting.
In addition to map details (which you probably know by now also), the only thing I know is that Serdoa also has a 2nd city; which strategic resource he opted to settle first is still unknown to me.
I'd like to set up a NAP with you as well, and am open to discussion as to the duration. I feel that our empires get better as time goes on and as such a NAP would be beneficial to both of us, allowing us more border security early on to develop our lands. I understand that, say, Roman legions may force any given empire's hand when it comes to military, but the way I see it going economy until forced otherwise can only benefit our civs.
If you're interested, let me know. I usually get back to emails within 24 hours, although actual timings may vary when I'm sleeping.
-TMIT
It's nice to hear from you. Now that things are starting to happen in-game somewhat, we can accomplish more than just exchange greetings, and I look forward to future co-operation with you.
I have not managed to meet anyone else yet, but my own exploring has confirmed that we do have mirrored land to an extent (I've spotted a couple of inconsistencies here and there, nothing too major though). I believe that everyone has a 2nd city by now, with ours being settled just last turn. Thanks for the info on Serdoa, I'll let you know when I meet someone.
I would also be interested in working out a border agreement with you, although I'll have to turn down the NAP for the moment. The reason being that while I am not against signing NAP's, I have been burnt in previous games by blindly signing them with everyone, and for now at least I'd like to make sure that I don't repeat the same mistake again. I don't intend this to be a sign of hostility (really, that would only mean everyone else gets ahead) and would be happy to consider a NAP later on once we have shared more than just greetings.
I would be happy to set up a border agreement though, as doing so would allow us to focus our immediate expansion attention elsewhere. How much of the land between our borders do you know (via direct scouting or indirect scouting near someone else)? If you don't have a complete picture, I would be happy to send a screenshot to help us set up a agreement.
And my response:
WarriorKnight
Okay, we'll hold off on a NAP then. The reason I wanted one is simply to avoid having to militarize unnecessarily early. Long ones wouldn't be required. Right now I am tied for first in power with 3 warriors + bronze working so at least so far nobody is going nuts on the power.
As for the other discussion, I consider the 2cow north of my capitol to be my territory. If you are where I believe, then shortly west of that should be a site with wheat/seafood that's only ~4 tiles east from your cap ----> the land between those 2 cities isn't great, so I say we set a border there.
South of that is jungle, and IMO we should table border discussions on jungle as with good sites around and needing IW + calender to truly use it (and a lot of worker turns) nobody should be settling jungle for 25+ more turns if playing decently.
-TMIT
He settled a late city #2 and has no defensive uniques traits so he's the most obvious earlygame target...I'm not sure why he wouldn't take a NAP but I'll live with it. If I can pull in Plako or (somehow) mackoti instead that would be fine.
The basic plan is as follows:
- Sign NAP/possible target split agreements with 2 civs.
- Go econ initially
- Stay ~80% of #1 in power of be #1 power as rival power increases
- Be ready to nail someone who is defenseless, backstab, or dogpile depending on what looks easiest.
I'd have to imagine this is the general outline approach for all 5 of us, but we'll see. I really want to be on a 3 side if there is one.
I am heading for Buddhism soon and was wondering if you would be interested to spread the one true faith? I could provide a missionary for free, others for a small payment. Let me know what you think.
Also, I have met plako as of this turn. His second city seems unguarded so I think he as well as mackoti played a true farmers gambit. We might have to intervene there sooner or later as I think we both acted a little more reasonable and got some troops which means we are now a little bit behind them probably.
Kind regards,
Serdoa
My response (lengthy too):
Serdoa:
I'm game for a missionary if you'll send one. I can't make promises about spreading the faith immediately; I really do like to emphasize cities, workers, and military early in the game but as it draws on it will be time to push cap and use some religious civics so I will spread it around eventually.
As for the issue with plako/mackoti doing a bit of a farmer's gambit, it's true but it isn't major yet IMO (~2 warriors doesn't even add up to a worker IIRC). Unless you want to NAP plako you could skirt the warrior near him to keep him honest (might or might not get him to alter his build order). I think any all-out hostility draw for either of us early game isn't a good idea unless we see a chance to slow them down without much investment...or unless their pants are still down ~20 turns from now.
I would be surprised if mackoti is doing anything short of gunning for prats. Unfortunately seafood lake will get him there decently early. What i'll be interested to see is how much of his expansion he'll cut to field them early (if he went BW before animal husbandry as I suspect it's already significant). It seems to me that one out of him/plako has been a tad over-whip happy (IE someone was at 1 pop for an eternity and I think it was rome). I don't think that is a good plan for GENERAL opening play, but if he's out for prats early...well...it's hard to beat going right there.
I'm all for punishing some under-built military from the early game powerhouses, but we need a reasonable way of doing it without sacrificing long-term. Actually, I'm a bit more worried about the opposite; stonehenge + religion is going to put you a bit behind on military (or expansion)...you'll need time to set up your UU. I could realistically put pressure on somebody but warriorknight hasn't really been responsive (NAP denied, haven't heard back on border agreements) and that means paying attention to him too.
I think our general plan should be to punish any particularly egregious farmer's gambit behavior with quick-hits (small amount of choke units with defensive promos) intended to hinder it, and otherwise tech up a bit. I'd be careful against plako though, because he can pretty much whip out a dog soldier at will.
If you want to extend NAP to punish some farming/divide some hits I'd listen, but it's a bit premature for that IMO . For now, we should just be on the lookout to see if they set up a sentry to spot for oncoming attacks, because to do that would 1) cut into their farming and 2) remove surprise. If they're not even willing to do that, I say we do punish it .
-TMIT
A couple things to take from this:
- While you can never trust anyone 100% in a FFA (everyone is trying to win!), Serdoa seems to be fishing for some longer-term dealings. I like it. I am probably in the wildcard tier with him and WK with olemackoti and plako as favorites. If he wants to fearmonger rome too, good times. We'll even the score a bit. Missionary is huge for me as it's good , culture, etc withot me screwing with that line.
- Am I letting him farm too much? I don't think so. GProphet early is expensive and SH is going to slow him down. I think this is a good thing for both of us. Maybe we can farm up trade routes too.
- I obviously have to watch out for HIM pulling a farmer's gambit, given stonehenge + religion route. That isn't lost on me. Even so, the no-defense expansion actually worries me more, as its impact is more immediate in terms of turnaround.
- WK has agreed to borders and signed NAP until t70
- Serdoa and I have 3rd cities, my 3rd settled for copper/corn in init 8 (I expect those who are spoiled but reading this know the location, I'd be surprised if most people don't settle this spot).
- Serdoa informed me that mackoti is basically south of me (or north, whatever).
Immediate plans are to ship my scout warrior south to meet mackoti/oledavy and to keep an eye on the power graph (I'm 1000 soldiers aka 1 pop behind someone). I am already mining copper so despite that the sight is my 3rd it looks like a window to take me out with dogs/axes is gone. I do have to be mindful of chariots until I pick up hunting however, which I probably want anyway to get the fur resource.
Serdoa indicated in communication that he thought rome wouldn't go all-out on him because he's considered a weak player (I don't think anyone can be taken for granted personally, that's a good way to lose). However, if I were olemack I would absolutely NOT attack plako with prats, and would favor wk/serdoa over attacking me because shock axes are a lot less fun to fight with prats than combat 1 axes.
I'll probably drop city #4 to get cow/horse (tight placement for defensive winz), that way I can seriously neuter any aggressive gains that rome or native america can do without watching a flank.
The only reason I am not posting here is that I have some diplo discussion going around that requested I delay an update to the thread (paranoia, but I honor my deals)
I have a BIG update video coming soon, that will summarize the rather large amounts of communication I've had with the other teams.
Hahahaha!!! I am stalking you TMIT (not really ). Yes, I am a subscriber (to your channel) and I am Jester Fool on the CFC forums. I would friend you but you intimidate me (plus I don't want the creepy stalker label LOL)! Anywayzzz, I registered on RB because of you (damn creepiness factor). On a side note, thank you for turning me onto PsyStarcraft (you liked him and I checked him out - he is the bomb - his brother Zai is pretty fun as well, check him out).
Hehe, finally I can say some things. I will go into more details later. But to summarize the last ~25 turns since the last update:
- NAP with Rome until t130
- PERMANENT NAP with Serdoa (I instigated this, as an interesting FFA experiment, more on this in my video update).
- NAP with Warriorknight until t70
- Open borders with WK and Serdoa
And then of course there is the gorilla in the room, and the reason I was requested to be silent until now:
- Triple dogpile on Plako (!)
Serdoa, OleMack, and I are sending some serious heat on plako due within 3 turns. Plako spotted about half of my forces (the melee) and so he knows what I'm intending (Amazingly, he seemed unsure to that point despite that I wouldn't sign NAP; possibly Dave mislead him or he was just hopeful). Specific war plans I will also be addressing in the upcoming video, along with my thoughts on how all of this came to pass and some expected actions by other civs and how I intend to counter them.
Suffice to say, Plako is not amused . Still, I'm counting on him as obviously I dont want this to go TOO easily for Rome. Wars of this timing are usually no-sells, but a 3 way allowed us to bring an incredible force to bear while the actual investment by any one empire isn't too great (I put up my 8 units from 1 city).
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). Yes, I am a subscriber (to your channel) and I am Jester Fool on the CFC forums. I would friend you but you intimidate me (plus I don't want the creepy stalker label LOL)! Anywayzzz, I registered on RB because of you (damn creepiness factor). On a side note, thank you for turning me onto PsyStarcraft (you liked him and I checked him out - he is the bomb - his brother Zai is pretty fun as well, check him out).
. Still, I'm counting on him as obviously I dont want this to go TOO easily for Rome. Wars of this timing are usually no-sells, but a 3 way allowed us to bring an incredible force to bear while the actual investment by any one empire isn't too great (I put up my 8 units from 1 city).