GvG Build & Discussion - Split Training

[Lurker Wyrm]

So, now that we're actually able to hold our own in the lower end GvG, it means our rating will undoubtedly wind up averaging around 1000 for a while. Unfortunately, that means we'll be fighting guilds that do GvG on more than a casual basis. Unfortunately, we're not quite ready for that just yet because we're still having troubles at the flag stand and in situations where we need to split, which are fairly important aspects of GvG.

While it's true that we're still exploring the aspects of the current build and haven't quite perfected it yet, I think we need to put it on hold for a while and use a build designed for splitting. Anyways, I came up with this one rather quickly, so let me know what you guys think.

D/W
Scythe Mastery: 15 (12 +3); Mysticism: 12 (10 +1 +1); Wind Prayers: 9 (8 +1)
Avatar of Melandru, Wearying Strike, Victorious Sweep, Mystic Sweep, Burst of Aggression, Harrier's Grasp, Lyssa's Haste, Res Sig

P
Spear Mastery: 15 (12 +3); Command 12 (10 +1 +1); Leadership: 8
"Incoming!", "Stand Your Ground!", "Brace Yourself!", "Go for the Eyes!", Anthem of Flame, Vicious Attack, Disrupting Throw, Signet of Return

E
Earth Magic: 14 (12 +1 +1); Energy Storage: 13 (12 +1)
Ward Against Melee, Ward Against Foes, Glyph of Energy, Earthquake, Obsidian Flame, Eruption, Earth Attunement, Res Sig

Mo/E
Protection Prayers: 14 (12 +1 +1); Divine Favor: 12 (11 +1); Healing Prayers: 6
Zealous Benediction, Reversal of Fortune, Dismiss Condition, Gift of Health, Holy Veil, Protective Spirit, Aegis, Gyph of Lesser Energy

R/Mo
Marksmanship: 16 (12 +3 +1); Expertise: 9 (8 +1); Wilderness Survival: 10 (9 +1); Protection Prayers: 5
Apply Poison, Burning Arrow, Savage Shot, Distracting Shot, Natural Stride, Mending Touch, Troll Unguent, Res Sig

N/E
Death Magic: 14 (12 +1 +1); Soul Reaping: 12 (11 +1); Curses: 6
Animate Shambling Horror, Animate Bone Fiend, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Death Nova, Discord, Shadow of Fear, Suffering, Res Sig

Mo/A
Protection Prayers: 12 (11 +1); Divine Favor: 13 (11 +1 +1); Shadow Arts: 7
Blessed Light, Dismiss Condition, Signet of Devotion, Spirit Bond, Reversal of Fortune, Shield of Absorption, Dark Escape, Return

Me/E
Domination Magic: 14 (12 +1 +1), Fast Casting: 12 (11 +1); Air Magic: 6
Glyph of Lesser Energy, Energy Surge, Energy Burn, Power Return, Shatter Enchantment, Storm Djinn's Haste, Gale, Res Sig

Here's the basic idea:
The top 4 (D/W, P, E, Mo/E) will go to the flag stand and hold there. Wards get set up at or in front of the flag stand (aka the opposing team's side) and the casters (and para) kite around inside them while the Dervish pressures someone. If the mesmer is there they'll spike someone once "Go for the Eyes!" is ready with the Derv (in Melandru's form) using Wearying -> Victorious -> Mystic; the Para using Vicious -> Disrupting; the Ele using Earthquake -> Obs. Flame (with Glyph of Energy pre-cast for the EQ). If the mes is there it'll help the spike with Surge -> Burn. If the Derv doesn't have Melandru's up then it'll just use Victorious -> Mystic. Eruption should be used primarily for defensive purposes since the blind is applied with every hit now. If need be, EQ can also be used for defense, but you have to be careful not to go down too far with exhaustion (if you normally have about 80 energy, then you probably shouldn't take it below 40).

As soon as the Para sees a spike incoming it should use, well, "Incoming!". Since the skill has such a short duration (I checked, 3s is as high as it goes... it might get up to 4 at 17 Command, but that's not worth it) you can't use it liberally, you have to wait until the spike starts (i.e. as soon as someone gets hexed with Shadow Prison, for example). "Stand Your Ground!" can be used a bit more liberally, but should be used primarily to relieve/cut down pressure. The 4 should be able to hold their own fairly well with wards and shouts, you just need to watch out for hexes.

The next 3 (R/Mo, N/Me, Mo/A) will be the split/gank squad. They will head to the opponent's base at the start of the match and stay there depending on how much resistance they meet. If the other team sends a gank at the start as well, they'll fight them (should have the advantage too, since most teams don't send monks on ganks) outside the base so they aren't fighting the NPCs at the same time. If the opponent does manage to send a gank to our base, then these 3 will be the ones who always go back to defend. The necro should be able to keep several minions going. Also, since the necro doesn't have a direct form of conditions his Discord will be dependent on the ranger to keep someone poisoned, while he makes sure Suffering and/or Shadow of Fear are on the target.

The mesmer runner should always have a flag in hand, which means as soon as you cap you go back to get another flag. If there's no need to cap then stay with the team at the flag stand and work with them.

Well, that's the basic premise of the build. I think there are still some rough spots to work out, but, on paper at least, it seems pretty stable. Obviously the big difference to this build as opposed to the one we've been using is that this one will require a second caller for the second team. Whoever does this *has* to have a mic. Also, like the Ele, the Mes should feel free to use Gale until max energy gets below 25. In case of emergency (i.e. we're a few seconds from a morale and the other flagger is right there) he can go down as far as he needs to (same goes for the ele).

That's about all I can think of for now. Let me know what you guys think. If at all possible it might be worth it to try this build (or whatever it winds up morphing into) on Friday when we meet next.

[DamadmOO]

In the N/E build i am missing a way to heal the minions once they are up? Or is that part not so important?

Also Paragon has no skill called Vicious Spear but it is Vicious Attack.
The elementalist has 7 skills equipped at the moment.

[FoxBat]

Healing minions isn't so important, because basically they will either be mostly unharassed (NPCs) or dead (focus fire by players). In the latter case you just hope to punish them with the death novas. Part of the appeal of shambling on this bar is you get a replacement minion anyway. I feel a bit uneasy about the necro bar being too heavily slotted towards gank with all the minions and only two hexes for discord, but would be fine trying it out as-is before changing.

The earth ele is missing earth attunement, which could almost be assumed.


I'd volunteer for leading the gank squad assuming it takes less skill than the flagstand one. That and I don't feel comfortable playing mesmer. I suppose the gank leader should play the ranger which seems pretty straightforward. Curious which role should lead at the flagstand (paragon?), and the spike there is much tighter so will require some coordination (3-2-1? Though this isn't quite as tight as casterspike... Or use one of the skills, like earthquake, anthem of flame etc as spike indicator?) Is gale/earthquake/both something to be thrown on the enemy monk at the beginning of spike, which isn't necessarily the person you are spiking?


Edit: The paragon seems a little suspect. No aggresive refrian? That's giving up a ton of pressure... usually anthem/GftE (or bringing a paragon at all) is a bit strange when you only have one other physical damager. Stand your ground doesn't apply unless you are sitting still, which you aren't doing all the time as a kiting caster. (Though it happens sometimes... and is more doable in a ward vs melee, but...) The only way you can use disruptiung is either when melandru's is up, or you put up anthem of flame ahead of time and save it for disrupting. Can barbed spear be fit in? This is the problem I have with paragon heroes, there's too much stuff I want to fit onto their bar...

[Hawkmoon]

Hmmm, so the only hex removal is via ending Holy Veil? Given that we've seen lots of hexes being thrown at us, oughtn't we to consider adding something else in? Could the Paragon have Hexbreaker Aria shoved into his/her bar somehow?

Looks like a neat build; I can already do several of the builds. I'll continue farming ZE so I can do the rest, as well.

[soul]

OK, I'd like to start making it to GvG, so I'll try and make sure I'm free (and awake) this Friday (and beyond).

I'll also volunteer for leading one of the teams if needed. Short of that I'll play anything (except that I don't have most of the paragon skills), though I think I'd prefer to be either one of the monks, since we still don't have an assassin. =P

Another thing for the monks, I'd suggest trying to get the same people playing them as much as possible. I guess it's not a big deal while we're trying different roles, practicing and learning (or maybe it'd even more important?), but it does help quite a bit when you're used to the other monk's style (at least from my experience when I was playing regularly with TNE). It's easier to see where they're having trouble and catch it, and helps avoid over-healing. Along with that, their job really doesn't change from build to build and so the people playing the monks would get a lot more practice with them than if they're switching classes every new build.

As for the build itself, other than what has already been pointed out, it looks good to me. Worth a try, at very least, and if/when we find we need to change things, it's not hard to do.

Edit: One other thing I'd like to mention, though not specific to this build is that I think we should have backup callers regardless of build. One of the problems I noticed the other day was when Wyrm died, we didn't really have anyone to focus our targets. Doesn't even have to be someone with a mic, since hopefully the main caller(s) won't be down for that long.

[Lurker Wyrm]

It was a little AM when I was coming up with the skills, so there are a few mistakes.

In the N/E build i am missing a way to heal the minions once they are up? Or is that part not so important?

It's not really neccessary to heal minions since they're pretty disposable. If need be (for whatever reason) then the monk can heal them a bit.

Also Paragon has no skill called Vicious Spear but it is Vicious Attack.
The elementalist has 7 skills equipped at the moment.

Oops. Fixed.

I feel a bit uneasy about the necro bar being too heavily slotted towards gank with all the minions and only two hexes for discord, but would be fine trying it out as-is before changing.

Both hexes are short recharge and long duration, so I don't see how keeping them on a target is going to be too much of a problem. Against a Divert monk that's facing other damage pressure (i.e. other people taking non-hex damage) the necro will win in the energy management battle, especially if there are minions up (thus giving him added energy reserves).

I kinda feel like exchanging the necro for a Blinding Surge ele... will have to think about that one.

I'd volunteer for leading the gank squad assuming it takes less skill than the flagstand one.

Ok... then who runs the flag? Also, this is more than just a gank squad. Ganks will have an assassin or something run in and take out some NPCs in order to make things go better for the team at VoD. They will rarely have a monk with them and will also run away as soon as the defenders send someone back. This is designed to put constant pressure on the other team and to fight the defenders, not just harass them.

Leading a gank squad does require some skill since you have to be able to decide when is a good time to retreat, or if you're confident in your ability to stay in their base and hold off whatever split they send back. Stuff like that. Remember though, the second team isn't responsible for just attacking the other base. You have to make sure they're not able to send their own gank.

I suppose the gank leader should play the ranger

Corect.

Curious which role should lead at the flagstand (paragon?)

The dervish, which I'll be playing. Paragon would also be able to lead but with Melandru's up, the derv is going to be pretty unharrassed. Most of the pressure at the stand will be going on the ele and monk.

the spike there is much tighter so will require some coordination (3-2-1? Though this isn't quite as tight as casterspike...

Yes, it is going to require good co-ordination, which is another reason I like it since it'll help us work on that. The timing is going to basically go something like this: Once the paragon has GftE ready, everyone gets in position and the 3...2...1 countdown starts. When it gets to 2, the ele starts casting EQ so it hits around the time the damage from the others starts. Para will pre-cast Anthem around the same time (2) and then at 1 will use Vicious followed immediately by Disrupting while the derv uses Burst to get his attacks out. We'll practice a few times in the Isle of the Nameless to get the timing right. If the mesmer is there it should only have to Gale the monk if it's an infuser. Otherwise it's probably not going to be neccessary.

No aggresive refrian?

It's already a high energy build. At 25e Aggressive is a bit unrealistic.

usually anthem/GftE (or bringing a paragon at all) is a bit strange when you only have one other physical damager.

The more I think about it, Anthem isn't really needed and can be subbed for something more useful (like an IAS stance). GftE, however, is pretty critical to the build because of the fact that when the derv doesn't have Melandru's up, Vicious Attack will be the skill providing the deep wound for the spike, which is pretty important and will need the boost from GftE.

Stand your ground doesn't apply unless you are sitting still, which you aren't doing all the time as a kiting caster.

That's true, but think of it this way: when you're kiting around you're not going to be taking a lot of damage from warriors since they'll be getting slowed by the Ward Against Foes. Also, when you stop to attack or cast a spell you're not going to be moving either, so it'll help out for that. If you think about it, a good portion of the damage you take is going to come when you're not moving.

Can barbed spear be fit in?

Barbed is not a very good skill for this build since it has no additional damage. Bleeding isn't really all that useful of a condition either, most sword warriors only use Sever because they need the bleed in order to get Gash out. Disrupting is mainly for the spike and not so much for individual interrupts. At a 15s recharge, EQ/Glyph are the longest recharging skills in the spike. which means we're going to be trying for a spike every 15-20s. At a 10s recharge on Disrupting, that doesn't really allow for it to make use outside the spike.

Hmmm, so the only hex removal is via ending Holy Veil?

Yeah, I know, that was kinda bugging me too. The problem is that Divert is the only really good hex removal skill but isn't good in a split situation where you're going to be the only other monk. I'm thinking of reversing the monks (with a few skill alterations) so the BL stays at the stand while the ZB goes with the second team.

Could the Paragon have Hexbreaker Aria shoved into his/her bar somehow?

Hexbreaker only works on spellcasting, so it's limited in its usefulness. We'll see though.

Edit:

Edit: One other thing I'd like to mention, though not specific to this build is that I think we should have backup callers regardless of build. One of the problems I noticed the other day was when Wyrm died, we didn't really have anyone to focus our targets. Doesn't even have to be someone with a mic, since hopefully the main caller(s) won't be down for that long.

We do need backup a caller(s). Any volunteers? Just remember "attack the monk" isn't always the best idea.

I'll also volunteer for leading one of the teams if needed.

Well, I don't want to sound harsh or anything, but you haven't been around for a long time which means you're bound to be a bit rusty. Maybe you should wait a week or two before you take charge of a group?

[Lurker Wyrm]

This is the air ele I'm thinking of replacing the necro with:
Air Magic: 14 (12 +1 +1); Energy Storage 10 (9 +1); Healing Prayers: 9
Blinding Surge, Lightning Javelin, Gale, Storm Djinn's Haste, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Healing Breeze, Air Attunement, Res Sig.

Thoughts? The blind will definitely help out a lot and will be covered by the ranger's poison (and burning every now and then). The Healing Breeze should help take some pressure off the monk. Storm Djinn's is there so the team can get to and from the bases in a hurry (something the necro lacked). Nothing really high damage like Orb, but (hopefully) the spammability of Javelin should make up for that a bit.

[FoxBat]

Bsurge along with a monk on the split implies you expect significant damage headed your way. Like, half the team instead of the typical gank squad. I'm not sure that + the ranger could kill NPCs vs a ZB flagger (minus a leet dshot), wheras the necro should have at least two minions up and lot of discord damage. If you want to kill some archers and run away when significant resistance presents itself, higher-damage is a better route. Also when joined together in a push, blind, wards, and shouts are a bit redundant. You could go with something other than the necro, but it seems to me that it should remain mostly offensive. Fitting in some kind of speed boost on the necro may help, maybe sacrifice D-Nova and a point in curses for a little air and storm djinn (the ranger should keep things poisoned at least)

The monks do feel backwards but you will have to worry more about energy when playing the only blight monk. So this is tricky. Just trying to get away with one monk at all at the flagstand is generally tricky. As the only monk, the flagstand one is probably going to need more defense than the ganker.

Aggressive refrain is expensive initially but as long as you are fighting, GftE will keep it on you, keep giving you energy, and leadership makes most other things cheap. You may need to add some energy runes or bring a staff to put it on when DPd however. If you can manage this, then you might be able to put in a +damage spear attack instead of relying on dshot for that speed boost. But if pressure is really not so important and it's all about spike, then I suppose the current setup is better, although you can't really "pure spike" with a melee character that lacks a shadow step, since they can easily pre-prot if they aren't being otherwise harrased or spending their energy.

If we can get some people together before friday (tues night after LoL?) we might try experimenting with 4 of the 5 flagstand team in TA. I think you'd have to be capable of at least surviving against a team of 4 and gradually spiking them out to have a chance at the flagstand.

P.S. I'd even rather monk than play a mesmer flagger, if it comes down to letting SF or someone else lead. Mesmer is FTL on me.

[soul]

Well, I don't want to sound harsh or anything, but you haven't been around for a long time which means you're bound to be a bit rusty. Maybe you should wait a week or two before you take charge of a group?

Well, yeah. I just meant it as I'm willing (and eventually would probably enjoy the chance) to do it, not so much that I wanted to do it right away. Anyway, I'm leaning more towards going back to monking again anyway. Will have to do something about missing most NF monk skills though.

If we can get some people together before friday (tues night after LoL?) we might try experimenting with 4 of the 5 flagstand team in TA. I think you'd have to be capable of at least surviving against a team of 4 and gradually spiking them out to have a chance at the flagstand.

Unless something comes up, I'll probably be on (for a bit, at least) most nights this week, and I'm all for giving this a try any time, although I can't be on much past 9PM PST Mon-Thurs. Not sure when LoL runs to.

As far as swapping the ele and necro, why not give both a try and see which one we like more. Fox does have a point though.

[Lurker Wyrm]

Bsurge along with a monk on the split implies you expect significant damage headed your way. Like, half the team instead of the typical gank squad.

Like I said before, THIS IS NOT A GANK SQUAD. I don't know why you're having such a hard time with that. Gank squads run in, take an NPC or two out, run back out. It's all about hit and run attacks with them. This is designed to FORCE the opposing team to split up their forces in a way they wouldn't normally want to. Think about it, during matches you had to go back to stop ganks on our base. Most of the time you had an easy go of it because the opposing teams didn't have sufficient defense to stick around. If they had had a monk with them you would have been in a lot more trouble and would have had to stay there a lot longer than just a minute or two. That's the goal of this, force them to send more than just 1 or 2 chars back. Force them to split.

Not all splits are restricted solely to ganking. We're trying to force a 4/4 split on their team.

I'm not sure that + the ranger could kill NPCs vs a ZB flagger

Ok, there are a few things about that which I don't think you understand (for whatever reason). First off, I've only seen 1 match where the team had a ZB flagger. Most teams at our level aren't even going to think of doing that. At most it's an E/Mo with Healing Breeze which is easy to shut down and kill. Don't forget, the ele has Gale. With a 5s recharge, it'll be able to keep whatever monk comes back on its rump long enough for the ranger to kill it since it won't have a second monk for added support. Also, who says you have to kill the monk to be successful? The ranger can keep applying pressure and make him back into the area with their GL while the ele takes out all the other NPCs. The other team will have to send more people back if they want to have a base left by the 5 minute mark, and that's where the monk on the team will come in handy. It will allow the team to stay inside the base and not back off. You're not ganking, you're assaulting.

If you want to kill some archers and run away when significant resistance presents itself, higher-damage is a better route.

Again, you completely miss the point. You're not running away. You're staying in their base (or at the most, just outside it) and fighting. The only time you would retreat is if their entire team heads back to the base, at which point the flagstand team would be pressing the base as well.

You could go with something other than the necro, but it seems to me that it should remain mostly offensive.

Can easily put Orb back instead of Javelin, or even get rid of Breeze since I think that's probably a skill you can do without.

As the only monk, the flagstand one is probably going to need more defense than the ganker.

Aegis, wards and shouts should provide enough defense, in theory.

Aggressive refrain is expensive initially but as long as you are fighting

You would have to use it at the start of the battle and waste almost all of your energy. I would much rather have "Stand Your Ground!" and "Brace Yourself!" readily available at the start of a battle than have a bit of extra damage being put out. Remember, when we meet them at the flag stand it's probably going to be 5v8 initially, so we're going to have to play defensive.

You only really need an attack speed boost when you're going to spike.

If you can manage this, then you might be able to put in a +damage spear attack instead of relying on dshot for that speed boost.

The faster you put damage out during a spike the harder it is to heal through. That's why you want Disrupting Throw. It adds a follow up attack a lot quicker than a normal attack would. Really, I wouldn't mind taking Victorious out of the derv's Melandru form spike sequence since a crit from a scythe is some serious damage and Wearying + Mystic would put out a lot of damage, probably enough to take out half their health bar.

you can't really "pure spike" with a melee character that lacks a shadow step, since they can easily pre-prot if they aren't being otherwise harrased or spending their energy.

While I agree that a large tree running at you is a pretty good indicator of a spike, I also know that adrenal spikes existed for over a year without the aid of shadow stepping while the tools a monk has to stop a spike once its started are still virtually the same. Also, melee switch targets all the time in combat, you never just "lock" on someone the way you do in PvE. Switching around is commonplace and if they pre-prot one target you can spike another just as easily.

P.S. I'd even rather monk than play a mesmer flagger, if it comes down to letting SF or someone else lead. Mesmer is FTL on me.

Don't you have a PvE mesmer? The air ele and the mesmer are somewhat interchangable I suppose... we could put the mes on the second team and have the ele run flags but then we'd have to leave Healing Breeze on it.

I'm leaning more towards going back to monking again anyway.

Yeah, once we get more comforatble with GvG and other people would like to give leading a try (and have a mic) then I'd like to monk a bit myself.

Not sure when LoL runs to.

Usually around 11pm EST, which is 8PST. Sometimes we go over, sometimes we end early, it depends on where we are and how tired people are.