The Next MetaGame?

[v8mark]

We have already really begun to tackle the AD/Support bot lane issue. I was wondering what some folks thought of my ideas on Tankiness being OP. Atama-Warmogs being a prime example

To be honest, I think Atma's might be OP, and might need scaling down a touch. Seyruun said the other day it becomes cost-effective at something like 1600 HP? Which every champ will have late game. Might need to be scaled back a bit.

[uberfish]

Actually the main reason people run 0CS support is because glass cannon AD/crit builds scale multiplicatively to a much greater extent than AP or tanking does. I don't think feeding 1 player all the kills would necessarily be optimal with different duo lane compositions such as the dual-stun lanes that used to be popular.

[Lurker]

1) I would prefer for you and Varis to play from my perspective. Try and make my idea work. I and someone else will play the Traditional AD/Support Role.

2) No other players on the map, why subject them to what could be an abysmal idea

3) We play for a set period of time(20 minutes?). The combined Gold tally will determine the winner

This would set you up to "win" the argument, but it would not prove anything. Combined gold tally? Of course 1 lane worth of gold used to buy gold/10 items would come out ahead of one lane worth of gold used to buy AD items. That isn't the point.

The important thing to measure is how much the champions contribute to winning the game. Which will be rather hard to test with rule 2 in action.

[Dantski]

Actually Atlas' proposal is actually heavily weighted against him.

1. By the 20 min mark, the GP/10 items will not have paid for themselves.
2. The GP/10 items don't make it easier to farm or give you much in the way of extra damage/harass.
3. An aggressive lane invariably pushes the minion wave to tower. While this helps deny some farm to the other side, it would make them more vulnerable to ganks. A lane in LoL is not just about the people that CS there, so while this may be a fun experiment it wouldn't be representative of a 'real' game.

Also to fully test it out you'd have to play it numerous times from both sides.

On the idea of double stun to supposedly beat up an AD/support, what do you do vs Vayne/Alistar or Caitlyn/Taric? They can do the same to you!

[Deceptus]

3. An aggressive lane invariably pushes the minion wave to tower. While this helps deny some farm to the other side, it would make them more vulnerable to ganks. A lane in LoL is not just about the people that CS there, so while this may be a fun experiment it wouldn't be representative of a 'real' game.

When you think about it, it comes from a rather skewed point of view. If the enemy jungler isn't Nocturne or Pantheon (and maybe Rammus) and you ward your lane to the point where you can see the jungler/mid lane coming perfectly, you're actually safer at their turret than at yours... the reason are lane brush ganks. Which tend to be easier to initiate. So pushing to their turret actually makes it harder for them to last hit and gives your own jungler an opening to gank if necessary. Plus, you get free hits on the turret and you see where their bot lane is at all times (so it's harder for the support to go and ward the river)

[sunrise089]

Two thoughts:

1) ELO differences. I tend to think Sullla is right at competent ELOs. While it isn't Atlas's point, does anyone think dual-stun dual-farm bot could be a superior (remember, not "viable") strategy at any lower ELOs?

2) I feel the following is correct enough to not be worth debating: "At any given time in the LoL meta there are certain strategies that are on average superior. All else being equal those strategies should be chosen."

A blind pick situation with a team that wants to win seems a clear example of "all else being equal," so pick a strong ranged AD+support bot.

I also think this is true: "On the margin, some strategies/champion combinations are more effective versus certain opposing strategies than others." Basically, counterpicking works to some degree.

My question for people who actually watch competitive play with any frequency is whether counterpicking, which is what Atlas proposes (in his example he's counterpicking an entire meta rather than a champion), can ever outweigh the average power of a certain strategy. As much as I applaud Atlas for starting this discussion, I suspect Sullla is right and ranged AD bot is now a strictly dominant strategy when played well. Still, I know counterpicking exists in the solo lanes, so I'm at least open to the possibility and welcome any thoughts...

EDIT: Fun tiny sample size example. I played a duo-queue game with Metallian at my lousy ~1225 elo yesterday. We were Soraka+Graves versus dual-farming Teemo+Shyvana. Through the 30 minute mark Graves had more farm than their combination. They obviously had SOME advantages - they were tanky and they could farm well when one was buying, while we were sustainable but squishy if trading blows and I couldn't farm too well when Graves was buying - but in general what was expected to happen happened. Lategame Graves was able to kill Teemo in 2 seconds, still be alive, and then kill Shyvana or whoever else was around due to his vastly superior farm.

[Dantski]

EDIT: Fun tiny sample size example. I played a duo-queue game with Metallian at my lousy ~1225 elo yesterday. We were Soraka+Graves versus dual-farming Teemo+Shyvana. Through the 30 minute mark Graves had more farm than their combination. They obviously had SOME advantages - they were tanky and they could farm well when one was buying, while we were sustainable but squishy if trading blows and I couldn't farm too well when Graves was buying - but in general what was expected to happen happened. Lategame Graves was able to kill Teemo in 2 seconds, still be alive, and then kill Shyvana or whoever else was around due to his vastly superior farm.

First thing I'd ask is, were the people you played against similar ELO to Metallian or lower?

Secondly, I think a Shyvana/Teemo lane is horrific. That combination just wants to deny farm and xp but has no CC or burst to get kills. In that situation, let them push (which I can imagine they invariably did) and don't look to commit to fights. You can outsustain them heavily and frankly you have 2 stronger champions which will be much more valuable in a teamfight.

If the enemy jungler isn't Nocturne or Pantheon (and maybe Rammus) and you ward your lane to the point where you can see the jungler/mid lane coming perfectly

Yeah I see what you mean, however I think all of us have missed seeing people ganking our lane so its not foolproof. I'd argue being closer to your tower than the enemy is to theirs is safer
on most occasions. Yeah pushing up does help a heck of a lot in knowing where their support is warding too so I can totally agree with you on that.
p.s. Teemo is somewhat tanky? :neenernee

[Sullla]

Regarding sunrise's point #1, you can literally win with any strategy against poor players at low Elo. Which means that it doesn't really matter one way or the other at that level. If we're discussing an optimal metagame, I think we have to consider what works at the competitive level of play, with people who are better than all of us.

Regarding the rest of the post, there certainly do exist situations where you could pick an unorthdox bottom lane as a counter pick and have success with it. But individual cases do not comprise a metagame, and I think it would be difficult to prove consistent success with a split farm bottom lane, at the top levels of play. If you're going to learn and imitate a style of play, why not the one that seems to work best? sunrise's little example shows exactly why "pick two random champs and have both farm" gets completely destroyed by a dedicated AD + support pairing.

[Sir Bruce]

My two cents: I think most of us agree that 4 solos + support > 5 solos in terms of maximizing one's own team power. However, that doesn't necessarily imply that this is the optimal winning strategy because we have to consider the value in shutting down the other teams' AD carry. Having two champs splitting farm while denying two opposing characters farm could be better for winning the game even though your own team's champs are less powerful than they could be. In other words, minimizing the other team's power may be more valuable than maximizing your own power.

The question I think is then more properly phrased as:

3 solos + 2 so-so solos (< or >) 3 solos + support + a worthless AD ??

This is less clear. It is likely still the case that a AD + support is better than two champs splitting CS, but it's not totally obvious and we can't answer it without considering the effect kill bot lanes have on both teams.

One response to this (as Sullla put it) is that the losing AD+support lane will just let their outer tower fall and farm at the inner tower. But I think that just means the kill lane played poorly by taking the outer tower. The point of the kill lane isn't to push or kill, it's to deny CS, making the AD worthless in the mid and late game. So a correctly played counterlane to AD+support shouldn't push the tower at all early game until the AD is totally shut down.

As far as viable bottom lanes that no one runs - I think a coordinated Teemo + Cass could be viable. Teemo's poison + Cass's Twin Fang is a deadly combination from level 1 and Teemo's blind is a good counter to autoattackers.

One final thought: I think Sivir is a counterpick to a lot of AP mids and I'm surprised we don't see her put there more often especially since her buffs. Spell shield plus good early damage is really strong against squishy APs.

[Atlas]

The question I think is then more properly phrased as:

3 solos + 2 so-so solos (< or >) 3 solos + support + a worthless AD ??

This is less clear. It is likely still the case that a AD + support is better than two champs splitting CS, but it's not totally obvious and we can't answer it without considering the effect kill bot lanes have on both teams.

This was exactly my point, thank you for putting it so clearly.

I got side tracked a bit with the gold question in my argument.

I think a coordinated Teemo + Cass could be viable. Teemo's poison + Cass's Twin Fang is a deadly combination from level 1 and Teemo's blind is a good counter to autoattackers.

do this with a Sivir mid? Should be plent of AP and AD, lacks intiation and stuns. Gonna need to pick jungles and top with those