The Next MetaGame?

[Brow]

Hey guys, first post so if I screw this up I apologise.

Sorry to go back to the gold issue but I was watching some of TSM's streams today (mostly Regi and OddOne) and they were having a similar dicsussion to this one and then tried their own experiment. OddOne, and I think Regi might have as well, bought XP quints and ran Zilean mid with Udyr in the jungle and they both stacked GP10 items. OddOne was constantly farming his jungle rather than ganking and Regi was playing passively as he didn't have the items to get kills in mid. Obviously one game isn't a good sample size but they got beaten as OddOne wasn't ganking and they were both getting targetted early due to delaying their builds in order to get GP10 items. They also weren't doing anything until late game, by which time they were already down significantly in kills and behind in their builds. Obviously their strategy was to gain an advantage in levels from Xp and then, in the late game, in items from the GP10. However, this was neutralised by the other team getting kills as well as dragon and baron because of their damage advantage.

Personally, I think that their two ideas don't necessarily go hand in hand and probably don't even work well together because there is not much point being a level or two higher than your opponent if you don't have the right items to back that up. Also they were originally talking about doing it with Skarner in the jungle who actually gets an advantage from getting to level 6 quickly where as Udyr doesn't as much.

As has been stated in the thread already, a lot of people are looking at ways to tweek the meta rather than outright change it as at the moment it has proven to be the most effective.

[Dantski]

I am genuinely surprised if Reginald chose to play Zilean during a test of this, Zilean is all about the early and mid game harass and falls off terribly as an AP carry lategame. I'm not saying stacking GP/10 items will work on an AP champ, but there were surely better choices.

[sunrise089]

Far be it from me to question top players, but I also agree that a refined test might be just gold items (maybe gold quints too) on a more conventional champ.

Still don't think this is superior of course...

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Beating the supported AD carry has to be some combination of

1) smother (kills)
2) starve (denial - either via zoning, or by taking the support out of the picture)
3) speed - if the AD carry is going to be dominant in late game, then the team without an AD carry needs to end the game sooner than that
4) strength - aka your AD carry ends up being stronger than what's provided by the current meta

The weapons you have available seem to fall into two broad categories

a) Changing your 2v2 bottom
b) Using a 1v2 bottom, and pressing the advantage somewhere else.

Looking at compositions that include an AD carry, it seems to me that carry plus support is about as strong as it gets, so 4a is a dead end.

3a is essentially stacking the team with early/mid game champs - we've seen that it the past, and it's never particularly stuck.

Atlas seems to be searching for some variation of 1a or 2a - can we put something other than support in the second bottom lane slot. A bruiser? Stealth?

The b variants are scary - three solo lanes doesn't really leave you with a place to hide an AD carry (jungle?) so 4b is off the table completely. But if you have a champ that doesn't get completely crushed in the 1v2, maybe you can apply the pressure elsewhere.

I'm thinking with the new respawn timers, there might be an opportunity in double jungle (I tend to think of this as red jungler/blue jungler), and in particular putting jungle pressure on mid, in addition to some extra counter jungle.


But that's all just theory crafting - it hasn't led me to a solution.


Another thought - how important are levels 7-13 for mid? Can we make something out of moving the mid champion to the "support" position in bot lane?

[mostly_harmless]

Just throwing out ideas here:

Have things like 2 mid or even 3 mid ever been tried successfully?

2 mid still gives control over dragon. And a 2vs1 mid might have more effect on the game than a 2vs1 in top or bot with the mid tower considered more important?

In the current meta it will need a champ that can comfortably farm against the supported AD bot. And in any case a 2vs1 or even 3vs1 mid will force reshuffling on behalf of the other team.

mh

[v8mark]

Just throwing out ideas here:

Have things like 2 mid or even 3 mid ever been tried successfully?

2 mid still gives control over dragon. And a 2vs1 mid might have more effect on the game than a 2vs1 in top or bot with the mid tower considered more important?

You can zone much more easily top or bottom than you can mid, though, because it's a longer lane. That's not to say there isn't some effect from a 1v2 mid; it's just that the counterplay of a 2v1 bot or top is significantly stronger.

[spellman]

It's interesting that for a period of time HoN/DotA had 2 or 3 mid to apply hard pressure and take the middle tower relatively early.

Granted, this is a poor comparison due to the denying mechanic so more players helping deny can keep your lane where you want it instead of the natural pushing that happens in LoL.

[Brow]

Dantski, the only reason Regi picked Zilean was because they were originally just trying to test the Xp quints along with Zil's passive. Regi of course got super excited about trying something 'new' and added the GP10 idea.

[Atlas]

Just throwing out ideas here:

Have things like 2 mid or even 3 mid ever been tried successfully?

2 mid still gives control over dragon. And a 2vs1 mid might have more effect on the game than a 2vs1 in top or bot with the mid tower considered more important?

I have often thought 2 mid made LOTs of sense:

1) It is far and away the most important lane

2) pushing over the mid turret opens up BOTH sides of the adversary's jungle

3) The shortness of the lane allows you to push it over easier

[Dantski]

Even if you put 2 champs who are pushers middle, I figure the other team will just swing the support middle (maybe the AD / support switches mid in this instance?)