The Haunted Forest: Mardoc puts the Sidar to the test.

[Thoth]

Also: As soon as t70 arrives, DOW Serdoa.

Make him worry about his workers getting killed by our invisible scouts.

If he's willing to sign a 10t NAP lets make sure it's a game enforced 10t NAP.

If he's not willing to sign a 10t NAP, then lets go to war. Now.

[Mardoc]

Serdoa has more Horsemen than we have units, and you want to attack? What are you, part Kzin?

No time for detailed comments, except that I think I'm persuaded on the Palisades, growth is good. And the fewer units we need inside the walls, the more can be outside fighting back. [SIZE="1"]or waned[/SIZE]

Also - HBR grants one scout, and new units the chance for mobility. KotE grants both scouts, all built DS's, and new DS's, better mobility, for free. Why would I want to go for HBR next?

I did reject the 5 turn NAP, we'll see if that has any effect.

[Thoth]

Serdoa has more Horsemen than we have units, and you want to attack? What are you, part Kzin?

SCREAM AND LEAP!

No time for detailed comments, except that I think I'm persuaded on the Palisades, growth is good. And the fewer units we need inside the walls, the more can be outside fighting back. [SIZE="1"]or waned[/SIZE]

Also - HBR grants one scout, and new units the chance for mobility. KotE grants both scouts, all built DS's, and new DS's, better mobility, for free. Why would I want to go for HBR next?

HBR....all units with a promotion available can take Mob1....and that 1 Invisible Scout can get up to 4 movement (with Mob 1 and mob 2). We'll only get one shot with it, but it's damn near a guaranteed worker kill. I'm not convinced that this is a better option than Archery next, but HBR should be in our near term tech path. Either immediately after Bronze or after Archery.

Screw the builder crap for the moment. We're on a war footing and we need units and techs that boost units/unlock units.

I did reject the 5 turn NAP, we'll see if that has any effect.

Cool. Make Serdoa worry about his backlines and we won't have to worry about ours quite so much.

Our plans need to be based on the assumption that we'll be at war within the next couple of turns. Defence and war toys are the order of the day.

"Millions for defence, but not one fucking penny for tribute"

[Thoth]

Also...the word "Wane" needs to be banned from your vocabulary for the forseeable future.

[Mardoc]

Also...the word "Wane" needs to be banned from your vocabulary for the forseeable future.

Yeah, yeah

[COLOR="Lime"]
Mardoc,

well, thats your decision. I just wanted to give you some assurance that I won't use our talks to attack. As for your invisible units: I cower in fear before the thought of some invisible scouts and workers - or are you going to move your archers out of your cities? If you have only half as much barbs as I do, I doubt you'll do that.

Kind regards,[/COLOR]

.

[Thoth]

Yeah, yeah
.

Cool, now that we have him cowering in terror, lets go and kill a worker or two. :hat:

[serious] We do want one of our ISes on Serdoa's borders for intel gathering at the very least. The northern scout near Selrahc should be able to make it back in 3/4 turns I think. Settling that last Wane as a GM brings us up to +9 GPT....which means we can support another 7ish units while teching at 100%. 1t Pallisades are possible in both cities this turn (we'll need to do some barb killing down south in order to grow Asteroids as there are some barbs standing on our Cows and Wheat).

[Mardoc]

Yep, now that we've found Selrahc, they're both doubling back. Although one scout found a dead end in mountains, they're on their way to Hippus borderlands now.

Speaking of Selrahc, I talked with him, but basically his attitude was 'better you than me'. He's not really interested in allying against Serdoa. Was willing to offer sympathy, but not more. He did mention that Bob is apparently aiming for a Longbow based army . Not sure why he picked Amelanchier if he wants 1-movers, but I won't try to talk him out of it. The only thing is - Bob is often crazy, and sometimes crazy like a fox. Is this one of those times? Am I missing something that makes Longbows now awesome?

Don't know how much time you have to kill, but if you want to read the actual chat for nuance, it's here:

Selrahc: Yo
5:43 PM me: hello
5:44 PM what's on your mind?
Selrahc: Just thought I'd check in in relation to the 18 diplo. You got any plans for dealing with Serdoa?
5:45 PM (I sent you an email too)
me: well, aside from mass copper warriors, not especially
5:46 PM Selrahc: Yeah, mass copper is basically the thing to do against an early rush.
me: Granted - if he goes east, there's a chance my troops do too
;-)
5:47 PM been talking with him, but he hasn't agreed to anything really
Selrahc: East meaning hitting me? I've really not got a great handle on how the map is arranged atm.
me: Ah. Looks like it's Bob - Me - Serdoa - you
so yes, I meant if he goes for you
5:48 PM Selrahc: Ah, alright. That's what I was thinking.
me: Thoth's trying to get me to preemptively declare on Serdoa
Selrahc: When you said "Opposite" in your mail I was thinking that it might be some sort of diamond arrangement.
5:49 PM me: oh, I see. No, I mean that you're on the other side of a cylindrical world
odds are we won't have much interaction except if you're amenable to some form of mutual defense
5:50 PM Selrahc: See, the thing is I really don't mind much at the moment if Serdoa kills you. I don't have much to gain from intervening.
5:51 PM And I'm sure you're feeling similar.
me: I guess it depends on what Serdoa sees as end-game, doesn't it?
Selrahc: Yeah. Vampires, Elves or Ghosts. Pick one ally.
me: I don't know that I'd really rather see the same horde in 10 more turns with an extra 10XP/horse
Selrahc: I think I may have already failed my alliance test though. :/
5:52 PM Since I was asked about possibly funding him a while back, and responded rather non-comittaly.
And.. haven't heard about it since then.
me: it's hard to go to Currency when it's worth all of 2 gpt, isn't it?
Selrahc: Yeah.
5:54 PM me: well, I guess I don't have a lot to say. I'm building to try to keep up with Serdoa. So I could perhaps offer to hit him from the rear if you become his target - but only if you're willing to do the symmetric deal
5:55 PM Selrahc: I can't really commit to that right now.
Although I'll keep it in mind.
It's probably a pretty good play anyway, depending on how bare Serdoa leaves his home defences.
5:56 PM Ugh. See if he offered me a NAP now, I'd probably have to take it.
me: ah
5:57 PM Selrahc: Not due to anything in game.
Just to remove the threat.
(As in any pre-existing deals)
5:58 PM me: well, I won't pretend I haven't tried to get a NAP
the irony is that if you can get one, you don't need it
5:59 PM Selrahc: I suppose.
Certainly if he offers one it means you're choice number two.
6:00 PM This probably hasn't been too helpful a talk for you.
Good luck with Serdoa anyway.
me: eh, maybe I'll come up with something more tempting for you
6:01 PM if I think about it long enough
I understand your perspective too, after all
6:03 PM here's another potential topic - if Serdoa piles into me, Bob's probably going to run away with the game
any plans for that?
6:04 PM Selrahc: Ultimately the plan is vampires.
Spectres now suck, so they aren't as good as they used to be. But I think I can fight elves.
6:05 PM Bob is planning some sort of longbow based mono-army. Which doesn't sound too scary.
me: a Raiders army based on 1 move units?
?
6:06 PM Selrahc: I was a little quizzical myself. But he sounds legitimate.
me: I just don't understand why Amelanchier in that case
6:07 PM Selrahc: I don't think it's literally going to be a 1 unit army.
6:08 PM He'll probably have some horses and stuff too.
But longbows are the headline.
I'm going to go look up the chat actually.
6:09 PM me: the thing is - when it's Bob's plan, I'm never sure that it's him who's missing something - maybe I just don't see the beauty
6:11 PM Selrahc: LB's did get some sort of buff in EiTB. IIRC.
Not sure what exactly though.
6:12 PM me: base Str 5/7
Selrahc: Ah. So S9 with Iron.
That is a pretty nice buff.
me: instead of the previous 5/6
6:13 PM actually if there's a buff, it's probably mostly that Bowyers is less expensive than before
so they come out early.
6:14 PM Selrahc: Possible he's just bluffing me as well.
I doubt it, but we'll see.
6:16 PM me: anyway, I need to go eat
Selrahc: Okay
me: so if I think of anything worth mentioning I'll e-mail you
Selrahc: Fair enough.

Built the Palisades, cleaned up southern barbs, grew Asteroids, Bronze is still due on schedule. We will at least be able to break Serdoa's initial army, with a good number of bronze warriors in each city, backed up by super archers. Speaking of which - I want to promote them Formation as well. Any objection to that? Also, I'm starting to debate where the point is that we stop spamming warriors and see about getting some DS's or Thanes incoming. It might need to wait until we see Serdoa's stack(s), though. Well...DS's can be built via Scouts, especially now that we're positive cashflow again, I guess the main debate is when it's worth getting some healing in our army.

Checked the demos again, Serdoa's now at 6 GNP. Very confusing, it's not the spike I'd expected from moving out en masse, but it seems to be falling faster than just him building horses.

In any event - I think once culture is subtracted, he's now at basically no net income. So he'll be losing money shortly, and then he's on a timer. He can get some of it back by pillaging us, of course, but it's too early for anyone to feed him gold, Currency's too expensive for 2gpt. All we've got to do is survive, and Hippus will be out of it.

[Mardoc]

And Serdoa continues coasting downward, now at 3 GNP. I'm frankly quite confused. Now that we're teching and he's not, he has nothing to gain from waiting. And yet I think he's still building more horsemen.

But! Bronze came in at EOT, so we now have a pair of Str 4 warriors and a bunch of Str3 warriors who will upgrade at start of turn.

I've been convinced, Archery is next. Well...probably. I note that Poisons could be ours in about 12 turns...I wonder if maybe we ought to simply go straight for a next-tier unit. We could build them the same way as we're building our Divided Souls - via Scout upgrades.

I've got workers prechopping forests on the presumption of Archery, but...maybe not?

The biggest downside to that approach is that it might turn out we lose most of our commerce before it comes in, to pillaging horses. In which case we'd wish we took something shorter as we limp toward Poisons on just the Engineers/Elder Councils.

Sadly, the barbs killed off the warrior intended for Sentry duty, while he was on a hill no less! We'll try again starting next turn, this time the Sentry warrior will have Bronze at hand.

And in foreign news, Gilden was born.

[Thoth]

And Serdoa continues coasting downward, now at 3 GNP. I'm frankly quite confused. Now that we're teching and he's not, he has nothing to gain from waiting. And yet I think he's still building more horsemen.

But! Bronze came in at EOT, so we now have a pair of Str 4 warriors and a bunch of Str3 warriors who will upgrade at start of turn.

I've been convinced, Archery is next. Well...probably. I note that Poisons could be ours in about 12 turns...I wonder if maybe we ought to simply go straight for a next-tier unit. We could build them the same way as we're building our Divided Souls - via Scout upgrades.

I've got workers prechopping forests on the presumption of Archery, but...maybe not?

The biggest downside to that approach is that it might turn out we lose most of our commerce before it comes in, to pillaging horses. In which case we'd wish we took something shorter as we limp toward Poisons on just the Engineers/Elder Councils.

Sadly, the barbs killed off the warrior intended for Sentry duty, while he was on a hill no less! We'll try again starting next turn, this time the Sentry warrior will have Bronze at hand.

And in foreign news, Gilden was born.

As much as I'd love to get our hands on Poisons (Nether Blade would be a wonderful boost to our defences, and you know how much I love Assasins) I don't think we have time yet. Archery with both pre-reqs should be 2/3 turns I think?

No idea what he's up to. Possibly he's nervous about barbs and want to make sure he has enough of a defensive force to deal with them.

He may not actually be coming for us. With Barb cities starting to appear, he may be couning on some capture gold from the barbs to kick his economy up. Since he's running Apprenticeship/Conquest he can eventually recover via cottages. Some of his GNP variation may be coming from maturing cottages, but I really don't know.

He's already managed to accomplish one thing: we've shifted gears out of economy mode and into War mode which does slow our teching. OTOH, having a real army is hardly a bad thing given the game settings.

[Mardoc]

I'm debating the best course of action this turn. I hope you're around, Thoth, I'd like to bounce some ideas off you.

The main thing is - both cities have lots of overflow hammers this turn, ~16 each. And we can add some chops on top of that. That means we'll waste a bunch if we just do another round of Warriors. But what do we dump the excess into? My first inclination is to continue the Temple to Kilmorph in Asteroids, while Pacman starts a Training Yard. And in both cases, go back to warriors next turn, until we have overflow again. But maybe we should simply work toward a Divided Soul and a Soldier of Kilmorph? We can 1 turn the DS and 2 turn the SoK.

Also - Serdoa's GNP is back up to 10, and his Soldiers count continues to be obscene, at 199K - making the same assumptions as before, that's an army of 21 Horsemen plus 2 archers and a warrior. So there's still no reason to stop building our own forces, but I think that means his are back in his own borders.