Learning Capria FFH SG

[Brian Shanahan]

I have the save, but am busy studying right now.

But from the pictures of the report I'd put Torro back on the the corn, let it grow to its happy cap and then push it into hammer maximisation.

What ETA on Education? I know I'll be able to find it but would be nice to know now. And what is Vallus building, I'd like to push out some more workers for a while get the growth curve kicked up especially with cottages coming on-line soon enough. I don't think we'll have too many problems with barbs as they can only come at us from the west, through the northern mountain pass, so warrior spam can be scaled back a bit, and if we can kick up the food and commerce we'll be able to get some proper goodies sooner.

And finally, do we want to push for an early religion? I'd say Empy or AV are our two best long term choices but if we went with Kili or OO early (preferrably Kili, as the Mines would cancel out two techs for us for a long time, ToComplacency is nice but it's a one city wonder, Iron helps better) it would help considerably against the Ljos or the Sheaim.

As regards the pics, I don't mind them being big as long as they are in spoiler tags. It's a bit of a pain shrinking the text down to see everything, but having spoliers gets around that (I can read the text then look at the map).

[kjn]

Awesome scouting of the south - you've uncovered some huge tracts of land! Os-Gabella looks she might develop into a monster if we can't rein her in in some way. More on that later.

Good development around Vallus.

And it was hardly utterly uneventful: we got some penguins! They're happily co-habitating with the deer up north.

Overflow can make my head hurt. The thing that happens is that the overflow is reduced by the bonus you have. So if you're in Nationhood, you first get 10% bonus hammers (only helpful if you produce 10 or more hammers per turn), but when you calculate overflow, you divide it with 1.1 and use that as the overflow value (rounding down).

So 12 overflow is calculated to 10.91 and rounded down to 10, and then you add it to the generated hammers and apply any bonus to the new value. I think Sevenspirits had some great discussion about this in PBEM 23.

[Hart]

I have the save, but am busy studying right now.

But from the pictures of the report I'd put Torro back on the the corn, let it grow to its happy cap and then push it into hammer maximisation.

The problem with that is you want the EC out *now*, so we can get the sage online, and get our Great Sage that much earlier. If you're not building a monument in Vallus then you NEED that Academy! With us now in Pacifism we want to get a Sage up ASAP. We can switch out of the temporary starving once the EC is up.

What ETA on Education? I know I'll be able to find it but would be nice to know now. And what is Vallus building, I'd like to push out some more workers for a while get the growth curve kicked up especially with cottages coming on-line soon enough. I don't think we'll have too many problems with barbs as they can only come at us from the west, through the northern mountain pass, so warrior spam can be scaled back a bit, and if we can kick up the food and commerce we'll be able to get some proper goodies sooner.

Education was 19 turns, I think. The production of Vallus was the only thing I wasn't sure about. It's been slow-building a scout, growing while the worker spends some turns building farms (it can't do anything else right now). I might have set it to switch to an Elder Council. Not sure from memory.

And you're right! The terrain gives us incredible advantage.

And finally, do we want to push for an early religion? I'd say Empy or AV are our two best long term choices but if we went with Kili or OO early (preferrably Kili, as the Mines would cancel out two techs for us for a long time, ToComplacency is nice but it's a one city wonder, Iron helps better) it would help considerably against the Ljos or the Sheaim.

Ahh, I was thinking about this as the turn finished! SPI leaders get a bonus to producing temples, so we should definitely cash in on that benefit. Empy is fantastic - Ratha, Chalid and Deius Dei. We're already part of the way there with AH, too. With Horses easily available that would be a great choice.

However, RoK would be great as well, and would make many of our early units super powerful with the Mines of Galdur. Thing is, you need Arete to get it... and those religious techs are a huge deal.

What are the realistic chances of an AI civ beelining Empy VS. RoK?

[Brian Shanahan]

The problem with that is you want the EC out *now*, so we can get the sage online, and get our Great Sage that much earlier. If you're not building a monument in Vallus then you NEED that Academy! With us now in Pacifism we want to get a Sage up ASAP. We can switch out of the temporary starving once the EC is up.

From the looks of the screenshot the 3 (2 from hill plus 1 bonus) hammers lost wouldn't affect the build time. That's why I'd be inclined to put it back. Also the extra 5 food will get us the extra pop a nice bit earlier (not sure how much earlier from eyeballing the pic, but +4 food is better than -1 by more than just the five food) allowing us to run the scientist more sustainably. It's the way I play, push the growth curve early and then branch out at the happy cap into the other areas.

Education was 19 turns, I think. The production of Vallus was the only thing I wasn't sure about. It's been slow-building a scout, growing while the worker spends some turns building farms (it can't do anything else right now). I might have set it to switch to an Elder Council. Not sure from memory.

And you're right! The terrain gives us incredible advantage.

Not bad for so far, we'll be able to push on that a bit too, especially if we go with the academy, a scientist and EC there would push us hard towards Edu (and they can be just temporary too).

Ahh, I was thinking about this as the turn finished! SPI leaders get a bonus to producing temples, so we should definitely cash in on that benefit. Empy is fantastic - Ratha, Chalid and Deius Dei. We're already part of the way there with AH, too. With Horses easily available that would be a great choice.

However, RoK would be great as well, and would make many of our early units super powerful with the Mines of Galdur. Thing is, you need Arete to get it... and those religious techs are a huge deal.

What are the realistic chances of an AI civ beelining Empy VS. RoK?

RoK is a lot more likely than Empy, even in EitB where I see the techs falling a lot faster a semi-beeline will safely get you Order, Empy or AV most games (unless popped from lairs). We don't have to beeline the religion itself just be quick getting the goodies we want from it.
In fact we don't have to beeline it at all, it was just an idea for early mid-game aggression, pre getting everything together for the full push.

[Hart]

Its 2 turns of -1 growth, to get an EC online, vs. 3 turns for the EC to get online and grow to size 8 at the same time. That actually synchronises very well, we can use the extra citizen as our specialist right away. Your call, 1 turn isn't that much - I didn't think the growth rate would be so quick...

Edit: Funny thing about the production - because Civ rounds down, we needed exactly 16 base hammers to get anything above 38, which is how many hammers we needed in 1 turn to get the EC in two turns. 1 hammer difference in tile yield meant we lost two hammers once multiplied.

[kjn]

I have the save, but am busy studying right now.

No hurry. I've told Haphazard1 that he is welcome to join us, so we might get another turnplayer.

But from the pictures of the report I'd put Torro back on the the corn, let it grow to its happy cap and then push it into hammer maximisation.

Disagree. We can do that next turn, but right now our big roadblock is research.

This turn: -1 food (22/34), 39 hammers into Elder Council
T +1: +4 food (21/34), 21 hammers into EC (move one citizen from forest hill to corn, getting +4 food).

We delay growth in Torrolerial with one turn, but we get the EC one turn sooner. That means we get +4 GPP and +5 beakers one turn sooner. Which means we can get out of Pacifism one turn sooner as well, and also an Academy in Vallus on turn sooner - say turn 110.

So Torrolerial takes a hit now, but it will help the entire empire. And right now, Torrolerial is out of good tiles to work - any new citizen is of limited value.

What ETA on Education?

19 turns. But I think we will get it down to 15 turns with the EC (2 turns now, and then 13 more with the help of the EC+scientist). Growth in Vallus might shave off another turn, but realistically we will have Education on turn 80.

And what is Vallus building, I'd like to push out some more workers for a while get the growth curve kicked up especially with cottages coming on-line soon enough.

Right now a scout. After that it should probably get a Temple or EC. Do NOT build a worker in Vallus - it has far more economic potential than Torrolerial - we want it at size 5 more than we want Torrolerial at size 9. Vallus will grow faster, gets less out from hammers, and can work the cotton and four riverside cottages at pop 5 at +1F (provided we cannot up the happiness limit in the short term).

By turn 80, I can see us following two early paths: one is a limited spoiling war with Os-Gabella, trying to bring Amelanchier in on our side. The other is with a few more cities. But the war would mainly be about securing Cyan to the south.

I don't think we'll have too many problems with barbs as they can only come at us from the west, through the northern mountain pass, so warrior spam can be scaled back a bit, and if we can kick up the food and commerce we'll be able to get some proper goodies sooner.

They might come from the south, as well. In part, that's why I'd like to get Magenta up soon - greater chance of Orthus targeting us We have enough warriors now for three cities, anyway.

Lets see:

Turn 67: EC in, Torrolerial at size 7, +5F (25/34), +10H (sage, sheep, corn, Patria, FG, FG, FH - build warrior/scout @ 13 (0/25)

Turn 68: EC in, Torrolerial at size 7, +5F (30/34), +10H (sage, sheep, corn, Patria, FG, FG, FH - build warrior/scout @ 13 (13/25) - 1 overflow disappears due to how production bonuses are handled

Turn 69: Torrolerial at size 8, +4F (1/36), +12H (sage, sheep, corn, Patria, FG, FG, FH FH) - can build settler in 10t/worker in 4t

Turn 69: Torrolerial at size 8, +2F (1/36) +14H (sage, sheep, corn, Patria, 4xFH) - can build a settler in 10t/worker in 4t (2 workers in 7 turns, 3 workers in 11 turns).

Not that efficient from a worker turn standpoint, but we won't have anything for them to do until turn 79-80, and then we can't have enough! But I think building the next settler will have to wait until turn 80, when we have four workers out.

And finally, do we want to push for an early religion? I'd say Empy or AV are our two best long term choices but if we went with Kili or OO early (preferrably Kili, as the Mines would cancel out two techs for us for a long time, ToComplacency is nice but it's a one city wonder, Iron helps better) it would help considerably against the Ljos or the Sheaim.

I think Crafting-Mining should be our next tech target regardless (and then we get a nice discussion about bronze vs HBR), so of RoK is still there when we get those I think I'd like to go there. Fishing-OO is of lower priority.

But I think we should discuss mid-game religions later on in more detail.

As regards the pics, I don't mind them being big as long as they are in spoiler tags. It's a bit of a pain shrinking the text down to see everything, but having spoliers gets around that (I can read the text then look at the map).

Large, and behind spoiler tags, is fine by me. Thumbnailed links are also good - I usually open the images Preview if I need to take a closer look at them, where I can annotate them and zoom freely.

[Brian Shanahan]

Its 2 turns of -1 growth, to get an EC online, vs. 3 turns for the EC to get online and grow to size 8 at the same time. That actually synchronises very well, we can use the extra citizen as our specialist right away. Your call, 1 turn isn't that much - I didn't think the growth rate would be so quick...

Edit: Funny thing about the production - because Civ rounds down, we needed exactly 16 base hammers to get anything above 38, which is how many hammers we needed in 1 turn to get the EC in two turns. 1 hammer difference in tile yield meant we lost two hammers once multiplied.

Maybe a compromise then, 1 turn of neg growth (i.e. this turn) and then go back on the corn. It'll delay the growth slightly but get us the two extra beakers a mite quicker.

I'll look at it this evening.

[kjn]

Yes, we only need 1 turn of -1 food in Torrolerial. If it had been 2 turns, the hit would've been much greater. Heck, we can work the corn instead of the sheep for +0 food @ 16 hammers, instead. It will lower our chances of a t79 Education a little due to the one lost beaker, but I don't think it will impact things.

Now that I check things, we will get the GS by turn 92, not 110 as I said above, and an Academy in turn 93 for +4 culture in Vallus. By that time I think Vallus will be at size 5 and working all riverside cottages, maybe with one or two matured to hamlets. If we build a monument now, it won't be done until turn 95, unless we break its growth by working the grasshill forest.

I love having mature cities helping new ones get to a running start.

[Hart]

As long as you're all ok with the plan, do as you will. Its late for me, so I'll check this again in the morning.

[haphazard1]

No hurry. I've told Haphazard1 that he is welcome to join us, so we might get another turnplayer.

Thanks for the invitation, but I do not think my FFH skills are up to this level yet. Reading through your discussion I stumble over a lot of things that I am not familiar with or am still learning, so I think I would only drag the team down. Also, my availability is going to be patchy for the next month or so.

I think I will just lurk your game and try to absorb concepts and information. And maybe ask a stupid question now and again, if you don't mind of course.