The Haunted Forest: Mardoc puts the Sidar to the test.

[Thoth]

I'm pretty certain that I had something useful to say, but RB went down (again) so I got drunk and posted on Poly instead.

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/19847...re-to-spam.

Grrrr.

[Mardoc]

I saw your link, but don't have an Apolyton account, so didn't bother to check it out.

Got this from Serdoa:

[COLOR="Lime"]
I have played the save right now (6 in the morning here...) but I need to rush to work now. So I'll answer tomorrow

Kind regards,[/COLOR]

He's...got a Thane of Kilmorph? And Asteroids has been out of revolt one turn?
Uh...maybe he just researched Way of the Earthmother himself? And spawned his free Thane in the most awkward spot for economic purposes (although a good spot for healing, I admit).

On that note - the demos are very encouraging - Serdoa's GNP, after gaining something like 10 GNP of culture in Asteroids, is 13. Which says to me it's a net loss for him after maintenance

Tomorrow we might hear some happier news. If anything can convince him to give it back, it's not being able to afford to keep it.

[Thoth]

I saw your link, but don't have an Apolyton account, so didn't bother to check it out.

probably wise of you....

Got this from Serdoa:

He's...got a Thane of Kilmorph? And Asteroids has been out of revolt one turn?
Uh...maybe he just researched Way of the Earthmother himself? And spawned his free Thane in the most awkward spot for economic purposes (although a good spot for healing, I admit).

On that note - the demos are very encouraging - Serdoa's GNP, after gaining something like 10 GNP of culture in Asteroids, is 13. Which says to me it's a net loss for him after maintenance

Tomorrow we might hear some happier news. If anything can convince him to give it back, it's not being able to afford to keep it.

Took a look at the t82 save.

looks like Serdoa spent his capture/pillage gold on a run to RoK. I don't see any other way he could have gotten the Thane in Asteroids. Good news for him on the healing front, bad news on the gold front. Why he didn't spend those beakers on either CoL or Cartography is beyond me. either one would have given him more benefit IMO.

OTOH, I'm also of the opinion that he should have rushed the weak neighbour rather than the strong one. With the forces he brought against us he could have WTFpwned Selrahc and would be sitting pretty with 4 cities (and 4 build queues) to our and Bob's 2. Instead, we've stalemated him. He's cost us the game, but he's also cost himself the game.

I'm not sure I like the Scout build last turn. Yes, we want the ability to attack out, but Serdoa still has 13 ponies he can hit us with. We need defence for the moment, and Archers are our best defenders atm. Once we get to 10-12 Archers, then yes, Scouts-->DSs for sure. But not yet.


We're looking at another 5/6 turns (I think) to get our Invisible Scouts home for upgrades.....then we have some more options.

Also, it looks like Partisan is about to gain his 10th xp

[Mardoc]

looks like Serdoa spent his capture/pillage gold on a run to RoK. I don't see any other way he could have gotten the Thane in Asteroids. Good news for him on the healing front, bad news on the gold front. Why he didn't spend those beakers on either CoL or Cartography is beyond me. either one would have given him more benefit IMO.

The only reasoning I can think of is that he underestimated the cost of maintenance.

OTOH, I'm also of the opinion that he should have rushed the weak neighbour rather than the strong one. With the forces he brought against us he could have WTFpwned Selrahc and would be sitting pretty with 4 cities (and 4 build queues) to our and Bob's 2. Instead, we've stalemated him. He's cost us the game, but he's also cost himself the game.

Particularly if he'd gotten tribute out of us first

I'm not sure I like the Scout build last turn. Yes, we want the ability to attack out, but Serdoa still has 13 ponies he can hit us with. We need defence for the moment, and Archers are our best defenders atm. Once we get to 10-12 Archers, then yes, Scouts-->DSs for sure. But not yet.

We're looking at another 5/6 turns (I think) to get our Invisible Scouts home for upgrades.....then we have some more options.

Well - archers are Str 5, +25% city. But Serdoa's got some Cover horses, which therefore get +80% vs Archers. I figured we need a mixture.

Plus, yeah, it did rankle a bit to let him park a badly wounded horse where a DS could have hit it.

I had been thinking, also, that Serdoa might be reaching an accomodation with us, but this morning I get this in the mail:

[COLOR="Lime"]Hey Mardoc,

so, I am finally finding time to think about your ideas. First I am happy that you abandoned that xp-feeding-idea. Even if we would come to peace I would not like to do that. I don't think it would be in the spirit of the rule. And apart from that, there are so many barbs that you can easily get units to 17xp and wane them.

Now, for your other proposals: Yes, I can't win this any longer. No matter if I give back Asteroids or not. Selrahcs power is rising already and Bob has played a very strong game till now. If those two don't war with each other, neither you nor I will be able to win. The thing is though, what happens if I give back Asteroids to you? Surely both will expect me to come for them, so there is certainly no surprise attack happening. Also giving back Asteroids will make my position even worse then it is now. Yes, you might give me back a waned unit in a barb city but till that happens it will be too late. You are right that Asteroids is only a small + on my side right now. But with you gone those people would finally start working again and then it is much better.

So, in the end I guess there is simply no point for me in giving you back Asteroids. I understand your point as well though. And I would trust you that you keep your promises. It's just that your promises wouldn't help enough. And then I'd rather war on and have fun with this.

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

If he's given up on the game too - . Serdoa, why'd you do it? You're supposed to play to win! Not to let someone else win!

Well - I suppose all we can do here is make him suffer. Keep playing the siege, maybe start building toward an Altar, see if any opportunities pop up.

Maybe I can think of something to offer that's soon enough big enough. Have you got any thoughts?

[Mardoc]

Thinking about this more, it's not the decision from Serdoa that rankles - it's the reasoning. It wouldn't be nearly as frustrating if it were 'I see your argument, but I disagree, Asteroids will be worth a lot to me soon'. But instead it's 'yeah, I've lost, so I might as well have fun bullying the weak kid in the corner. And that's you.' I don't even know how to respond to that - and he's not even roleplaying Perpentach!

I don't know that I want to play another game here at RB - but I definitely will think twice about games with Serdoa in them.

[Mardoc]

I've started e-mails to Serdoa four times already, and every time within a paragraph I'm spouting obscenities and considering just quitting the game. Obviously I've deleted those, not sent them.

I just don't understand the way he thinks! Why even bring up the topic of peace if he's not willing to actually consider it? Why give up so easily?

[Thoth]

The only reasoning I can think of is that he underestimated the cost of maintenance.


Particularly if he'd gotten tribute out of us first

Yeah, but

[img][/img]

In Serdoa's shoes who would you rush? The civ that has obviously been preparing? Or the civ with less than half their power and the ability to field Vampires in the not too distant future?

Well - archers are Str 5, +25% city. But Serdoa's got some Cover horses, which therefore get +80% vs Archers. I figured we need a mixture.

Plus, yeah, it did rankle a bit to let him park a badly wounded horse where a DS could have hit it.

Yeah, good point. A few fortified DS's will help our defences and give us the option to attack out if it presents it's self.

I had been thinking, also, that Serdoa might be reaching an accomodation with us, but this morning I get this in the mail:






If he's given up on the game too - . Serdoa, why'd you do it? You're supposed to play to win! Not to let someone else win!

Well - I suppose all we can do here is make him suffer. Keep playing the siege, maybe start building toward an Altar, see if any opportunities pop up.

Maybe I can think of something to offer that's soon enough big enough. Have you got any thoughts?

Yes. Dial up Selrahc and point out how weakly defended Serdoa's cities are. Our invisible scouts can give him turn by turn up to date intelligence on Serdoa's defenses. Now that Selrahc actually has an army, see if you can talk him into taking out Serdoa's core.

Thinking about this more, it's not the decision from Serdoa that rankles - it's the reasoning. It wouldn't be nearly as frustrating if it were 'I see your argument, but I disagree, Asteroids will be worth a lot to me soon'. But instead it's 'yeah, I've lost, so I might as well have fun bullying the weak kid in the corner. And that's you.' I don't even know how to respond to that - and he's not even roleplaying Perpentach!

I don't know that I want to play another game here at RB - but I definitely will think twice about games with Serdoa in them.

I can kind of see where Serdoa is coming from. He's bet his game on making a rush. Giving up and simply walking away with pillage/capture gold isn't going to help him. I suspect given how empty his core is, that he's got some reinforcements heading our way and figures he still has a shot at taking us out completely.

I think we can make it expensive enough for him that we can make sure he comes down with us (Bob's power is impressive and he's got some very shiny toys on the board right now....)

[Mardoc]

Yes. Dial up Selrahc and point out how weakly defended Serdoa's cities are. Our invisible scouts can give him turn by turn up to date intelligence on Serdoa's defenses. Now that Selrahc actually has an army, see if you can talk him into taking out Serdoa's core.

I'm not going to do any diplo until I calm down a bit.

In Serdoa's shoes who would you rush? The civ that has obviously been preparing? Or the civ with less than half their power and the ability to field Vampires in the not too distant future?

Depends on if I were trying to win, or just trying to make the Elfs win.

Seriously, at the moment I think Serdoa never intended to win, just to spoil. That's probably hyperbole, but I'm in no mood to be charitable.

I can kind of see where Serdoa is coming from. He's bet his game on making a rush. Giving up and simply walking away with pillage/capture gold isn't going to help him. I suspect given how empty his core is, that he's got some reinforcements heading our way and figures he still has a shot at taking us out completely.

Y'know - if he'd phrase it that way, then I wouldn't be bothered so much. It's the 'I'm bound to lose at this point, so I might as well stomp you into the ground' attitude that hurts. Look, Serdoa, if you're bound to lose and just looking for an interesting fight - why the heck do you want to fight the one turtling in his city? Why not go pick a fight with someone your own size?

I think we can make it expensive enough for him that we can make sure he comes down with us (Bob's power is impressive and he's got some very shiny toys on the board right now....)

Making Serdoa hurt is currently my highest priority here, yes. From top to bottom, he's just taken this game and sucked out all the fun from it.

The only thing that might change that is if he's right about his earlier comment:

I think we learned both the lesson to ask the other if we are unsure about his words. And I would assume that it is not your but my fault (because it is not the first time that happened to me).

But right now I can't calm down enough to even ask him if he really means what he said. The most temperate response that comes to mind is "If you weren't willing to negotiate, WHY THE FUCK did you even bring up the subject?"

Somehow I don't think that would help anything.

[Mardoc]

It's...vaguely possible I may have overreacted.

[COLOR="Silver"]Serdoa,

I've been angry all day, but I think I've calmed down enough to be
rational again. So I figured I'd check if I heard what you meant to
say.

Do you mean no peace, for any reason, or just that Asteroids is too
much to pay? I think I might be willing to consider peace without
getting Asteroids back, if you're willing to sign a long NAP and give
me first dibs on killing any barbs in the Sidar/Hippus area to try to
build myself back up. Obviously I couldn't pay you anything for peace
then.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Lime"]Hey Mardoc,

I am sorry that I made you angry. That wasn't the intention in anything I said. I probably shouldn't have rushed my answer but you waited so long that I wanted to get it done. Obviously I have considered making peace with you, otherwise there would not have been a need to ask you about it. I guess I understood you wrong in the last email, getting the impression you either get Asteroids back or would not consider peace at all. If that is not the case, I am sure we can find a better deal. I quite honestly would love to send my horses over to Selrahc (they need around 7 turns to reach him right now...) and maybe leave 3-4 in the area to help you find and capture barb cities. As you play after me in the turn order I think it should be not too hard to help you with that - if you do need help with it at all of course.

So, would a NAP till T135 be what you are looking for? And would you consider working with me against Bob after Selrahc? Hitting him from two sides at once with extremely fast moving units (my horses, your DS) should be devastating. Of course all that depends on finding more cities for you I understand that. So, maybe for now

- NAP till T135
- The first 2 barb cities to be discovered by either you or me in the Hippus/Sidar area are yours
- If I take Selrahcs cities this will be upped to the first 4 barb cities
- Joint action against Bob if viable for either of us and a MDP till T135 in case he attacks either of us

That last one is completely optional from my point of view but I thought I should include it as it seems to make sense for us.

Again, I am sorry that you got angry Mardoc. I am having very much fun with this game (and this civ, guess I am not the peaceful builder type) and feel bad if others are not having that due to my messages being poorly written or myself misunderstanding what others are telling me.

Kind regards,
Serdoa[/COLOR]

Worth thinking about, anyway.

[Mardoc]

[COLOR="Silver"]Serdoa,

I am glad that I asked - I thought you were saying that you
reconsidered the very idea of peace, and I was wondering why you
bothered to ask at all.

What you proposed is close to what I can accept, but I have a couple
changes to request.

First - without Asteroids, there's no chance I can help against
Selrahc. So you'd be on your own against him. I think you'd need to
take all the horses you can; by the time barb cities spawn, I should
be able to handle them. I might be able to build up enough to help
against Bob, by the time that happens, so I'm fine with a MDP against
him.

Second - I want dibs on the actual barbs, too, not just their cities -
as in, my units would be the ones to defend Asteroids' tiles. And I'd
want to go barb hunting on your borders, too. Obviously you could
attack them if I can't get to them in time to save improvements, but I
need the XP badly.

Third - if the tiles with Copper or Horses flip to you, I want the
resources traded back.

Finally - I realize you won't trade Asteroids for promises. But maybe
you'd trade it for barb cities once they're in hand? Or for something
specific like 10 Divided Souls coming along against Selrahc starting
in 5 turns? It'll always be worth less to you than to me, between
Motherland and distance. So when I have what you think is enough to
trade for it, I'm probably willing.

There's probably other deals we can make eventually too, like unit
buffs and such.

Do you want to declare peace, or stay at phony war for a while until
you're on Selrahc's border?[/COLOR]

Ironic that my response from Serdoa and then this one comes about an hour after Bob and Selrahc both asked how it was going, and wished me luck (but zero help). I told them both that I was at war until the bitter end - and I meant it at the time, too

But, well - if either had lifted a single finger to help, I might not be willing to sign. As it is - screw 'em.