[SPOILERS] Ceiliazul and Timski go To War: Brennus of Spain

[Ceiliazul]

Correct: Capital 2H + Deer 1H = 7 turns with 1 overflow. Am I missing something?

If we naively assume somewhat mirrored starts, I don't see how anyone can beat us to Stonehenge by turn 24: Dazed lacks all food-related techs. Hammurabi needs Mysticism instead of Hunting, but requires a turn of Anarchy to slave, and (IMHO) isn't likely to prioritise Stonehenge anyway. Commodore has to do everything we do, plus tech Mysticism, which would still leave them at least a turn behind completing Stonehenge even at half cost.

Gut feeling is that we can risk losing a religion (which looks likely if Agriculture follows Bronze Working, probably in turn followed by at least the Wheel before a religion) to Dazed (who is most likely to also go for an early religion), then we still have a decent chance of picking up one of the other early religions, so all is not lost.

You're right about the deer, I was thinking 1/2

I really appreciate these great ideas! You've done a lot of work on this, I can't wait until I can check out your sim

[timski]

I don't normally bother with anything like this sort of detail, so I'm briefly enjoying the novelty of over-planning . Proposed micro, pending improvement:

T0: Settle in place. Tech Mining. Build Work Boat. Working Deer.
T5: Mining completes. Tech Hunting (Hunting/Mining order does not matter unless we expect very early contact?).
T7: Work Boat finishes, improves Fish. Build Worker. Growth to size 2. Working Deer and Fish.
T9: Hunting completes. Tech Bronze Working.
T12: Worker finishes, starting improving Deer. Build Warrior (or Scout?).
T14: Deer improved.
T15: Growth to size 3. Working Deer, Fish and Rice. Warrior finishes. Build Worker. Worker moves to forest 2E of capital.
T16: (Worker unfortunately does nothing! Alternatively they could move to a more distant forest, but I'm assuming we'll want to priorities chops on the north-east side, which will be more vulnerable militarily.)
T17: Bronze Working completes. Revolt to Slavery (option of delaying a turn to confuse opponents). Tech Agriculture. Worker chops forest 2E of capital.
T18: Slave Worker (with 1 turn till completion). Now working only Fish and Deer (we could reconfigure for max hammers, but it makes no different to the end date of the 'Henge, and costs at least 1 growth in the meantime).
T19: Worker completes, overflow into Stonehenge. Second Worker moves 2N. First Worker chop completes.
T20: Second Worker chops forest 2N of capital. First Worker moves to 1NE of capital.
T21: First Worker chops forest 1NE of capital.
T22: Agriculture completes. Tech the Wheel (probably). Growth to size 3. Working Fish, Deer and Forest Plains Hill. Second Worker chop completes.
T23: Second Worker moves to the Rice and starts improving it. Third and final chop completes. Working Working Fish, Deer and Rice.
T24: Stonehenge finishes. Growth to size 4 (presumably for a Settler - the tile detail can be altered slightly if reaching size 4 this turn isn't so important). First Worker probably moves towards the Silver (or perhaps Farms 1N of the capital, but I guess we'll want the cash).

Edit: Alternatively, we can configure for hammers on T18, chop only 2 forests, and slave a second time on T23 to complete Stonehenge. It's a fairly simple trade-off between forests (3 or 2) and people (T24 population 4 or 2). Either way, it's a T24 Stonehenge.

We can change plans up until the start of turn 19, so the Stonehenge leaves us potentially vulnerable for 5 turns, although we should have 2 Warriors by that stage, so getting rushed attacked so early seems unlikely.

Another edit: I'm also no longer sure we can beat Commodore, if they really want Stonehenge and have a similar setup. I'm overlooking the fact that they could probably complete it with a single chop and a Worker slave overflow, so still have just enough time to tech Mysticism. Likely they'd beat us by one turn! Hopefully we will be able to get a sense for what techs they are chasing.

And again: I'm wrong that T24 is the earliest Stonehenge. We could get it on turn 22: Simply tech Mining - Bronze Working, while building Work Boat - Worker - slaved Worker overflow into Stonehenge, with 3 chops and a final Slaving of Stonehenge. The catch is obviously that this would leaves us in a terrible position - only the Fish improved, only the starting Warrior for defense, only 1 and a bit remaining population.

And finally (I hope) : The Worker utilisation in the detailed micro above can be smoothed out a little by starting the Warrior for 1 turn before the Worker, completing the Warrior after the Worker. This would mean we have a panic option if something comes out of the fog before T15. But it slows development slightly, and takes away some slack (that slack might actually be useful if early contacts somehow reduce the cost of something like Bronze Working). Given the apparent map layout, I seriously doubt anything will evade our (presumably) scouting Warrior and wander up to our capital so soon.

Overall, I'm happy with first option outlined in this post, perhaps with the final Warrior panic button - assuming we agree that Stonehenge is worth early focus, with a small risk of losing to Commodore on T23, but not the absolute sacrifice of the T22 option.

[timski]

Behold, the ultimate - I hope - macro! This gives us Stonehenge on T24, with an 1 turn panic Warrior available from turn 8 if needed. Even if we get really unlucky (an enemy appears 2NE of the capital), we'll get warning of any enemy Warrior (and 2-move Scouts can't take cities). The only remaining optimisation might be to slow the second Worker's chop by one turn, so that the final 2 chops of Stonehenge complete on T23, minimising the chance of losing 2 forests (but also delaying the Rice Farm by a turn) :

T0: Settle in place. Tech Mining. Build Work Boat. Working Deer.
T5: Mining completes. Tech Hunting. Working Forest Plains Hill (for 1 turn only).
T6: Work Boat finishes, improves Fish. Build Warrior. Working Fish.
T7: Growth to size 2. Working Fish and Deer.
T8: Build Worker (leaving the Warrior at 6/10H, so can be built in one turn if needed).
T9: Hunting completes. Tech Bronze Working.
T13: Worker finishes, starting improving Deer. Warrior build continues.
T15: Growth to size 3. Warrior finishes. Build Worker. Deer improved. Working Fish, Deer and Rice.
T16: Worker moves to forest 2E of capital.
T17: Bronze Working completes. Tech Agriculture. Revolt to Slavery (option of delaying a turn to confuse opponents). Worker chops forest 2E of capital.
T18: Whip Worker (with 1 turn till completion). Now working only Fish and Deer.
T19: Worker completes, overflow into Stonehenge. Second Worker moves 2N. First Worker chop completes.
T20: Second Worker chops forest 2N of capital. First Worker moves to 1NE of capital.
T21: First Worker chops forest 1NE of capital.
T22: Agriculture completes. Tech the Wheel (probably). Growth to size 3. Working Fish, Deer and Forest Plains Hill (hill for 1 turn only). Second Worker chop completes.
T23: Second Worker moves to the Rice and starts improving it. Third and final chop completes. Working Working Fish, Deer and Rice.
T24: Stonehenge finishes. Growth to size 4 (presumably for a Settler - the tile detail can be altered slightly if reaching size 4 this turn isn't so important). First Worker probably moves towards the Silver (or perhaps Farms 1N of the capital, but I guess we'll want the cash).

I quite impressed at how much macro optimisation is possible when one spends way too much time iterating.

[Ceiliazul]

I quite impressed at how much macro optimisation is possible when one spends way too much time iterating.

Wow dude, that is impresive!

New Theme Idea: names derived from 'Timski'!

Timski
skimpy
skifree
timmy
Kitims
Yiskit
...

It bears repeating:

[timski]

Naming schemes rearranging the same 6 letters are prone to disaster, even if I was feeling egotistical enough to accept the compliment . My micro got so manic it inadvertently became a macro. Since I'm (helplessly?) still thinking about it, some very rough, post-Stonehenge thoughts:

If Stonehenge completes with the capital at size 4, getting a pair of Settlers out quickly is fairly easy, even with only modest slaving. Realistically, we could be looking at 3 cities by turn 35-40 (depending on travel distance and whether we need additional Warriors). So although we seem behind on REXing, it shouldn't be too bad, especially once we add in the easy border pops. If we move straight to Settlers after the 'Henge, then what we really need is to be able to build roads after the chops - so that routes to the new city sites can be constructed just before the Settler arrives - and not divert onto Agriculture. And if the capital is whipping, it probably doesn't need farms with any urgency. The only non-road improvement would be the Silver mine, which will keep the tech rate high in spite of several under-developed cities.

After the Wheel (at T22) there are a disturbing number of urgent techs: Pottery for Granaries and efficient slaving, Animal Husbandry for horses (if nothing else), Archery for defense, maybe Iron Working if we haven't found Copper. Oh, and that early religion we talked about, ideally before any of this. If we're in a tight spot on techs, it might be best to let the capital grow, rather than whip it - but of course that only works well with Agriculture...

Oh my! Maybe I should put this line of inquiry on the back burner until we've seen the surrounding land, and let you sim a little? (I updated my sim to be a little less rough.)

[Ceiliazul]

I made a sim, and checked yours out too. I love your micro plan!

Some things of note:
-my sim was small world size and had faster tech. Gotta check the real game
-*if* tech is as fast as my sim, possibly mine-BW before worker gets done!
-It's been a really long time since I played Prince!

In a macro sense, crazy fast tech speeds mean more incentive to skimp on defense.

[timski]

Here Plako states the, "Official size will be Standard." Oh, and "Map will be Flat and there are neighbors close by." I think we've worked that one out already. (And if we're right there, Stonehenge's culture might have some extra punch.)

[timski]

C&D research note: Since the initial Mining and Hunting techs aren't needed as soon as they are researched, we can potentially confuse opponents' C&D by switching them about a bit - for example, switching to Hunting just before Mining would have completed. It will initially look like we're researching a second tier tech. Likely that will be read as an early religion, and perhaps our true research will still be hard to confirm when a religion doesn't get founded, since those turns also involve population growth and half-built stuff. I don't think there is any beaker lose possible at this stage, is there?

[Ceiliazul]

C&D research note: Since the initial Mining and Hunting techs aren't needed as soon as they are researched, we can potentially confuse opponents' C&D by switching them about a bit - for example, switching to Hunting just before Mining would have completed. It will initially look like we're researching a second tier tech. Likely that will be read as an early religion, and perhaps our true research will still be hard to confirm when a religion doesn't get founded, since those turns also involve population growth and half-built stuff. I don't think there is any beaker lose possible at this stage, is there?

No beaker loss possible in that situation, but I'm having some success with a straight hunting-BW (even on standard)

Edit: actually, your plan is better. I can get henge a turn sooner, but settler is delayed 2t... not worth it. Unless of course, we lost 'henge by 1t!

[timski]

Edit: actually, your plan is better. I can get henge a turn sooner, but settler is delayed 2t... not worth it. Unless of course, we lost 'henge by 1t!

Feel free to post your plan, unless you're sure it won't fly - we might be able to cut a turn out somehow.

Stonehenge is, ultimately, your decision. I'll just put the arguments as I see them:

I'm nervous about Commodore, because I think they could beat us by a turn, maybe two - if the starts are mirrored, and if Commodore wants the 'Henge. But both those if-s are in doubt: Some the language used in the initial thread suggests that the starts aren't mirrored - Plako talked of the map maker balancing players - and that sure nerfs Commodore . While Commodore may wish to Wonder-hoard just because they can, Stonehenge isn't an especially strong build for them - and they'd have to divert for slightly later wonders and general expansion to build Stonehenge by the early 20s.

Kyan is a wildcard, if they also have Deer at their start, since they would only need 2 techs. However, without further food they'd likely complete Stonehenge akin to my T22 option - crippled and vulnerable, which doesn't fit with Aggressive. And without Charismatic, I don't see Stonehenge as being especially important, merely convenient.

I don't think the others can beat us without incredible starts: Dazed has the same tech research requirement, but no starting food techs and anarchy - nor any obvious reason to go for Stonehenge, since their early strength is in fast Settlers. GingerEagle likely has the food options and the Charismatic motive, but has more Beakers to tech, plus anarchy - and I'm guessing will be more interested in money.

Not to mention that many still regard Stonehenge as a weak opener, because it delays expansion.

For us, I think Stonehenge sits well with Charismatic and our food-heavy start. Mid-term the GP complements religion, 'Henge and Monuments bolsters defense, and happiness lets us use food in a way others cannot. We are gambling against an unseen map, but with no early expansion traits, we are gambling with less to lose. Maybe we'll be proved wrong, but that would at least be an interesting wrong.

So my feeling is there is a risk of losing it early, but a fairly small risk. And there is a risk of it not transpiring to be the best strategy for us, but that risk is also fairly small. I'm not in favour of securing it at any cost, but if we complete it with a whippable 4 capital population, we can subsequently pump Settlers out fairly fast.

Of course we're not at all committed to this path until about turn 9, and can still divert as late as turn 18. So if the map throws us a curveball, or we spot a rush of people teching Mysticism and Bronze, the plans are there to be rewritten.