Learning Capria FFH SG

[kjn]

As regards the workers, I'm of the school of 1 worker per city is dangerously low school. I'd rather have too many workers early improving stuff we won't use for 40 or 50 turns than have to go all out later after the second or third push. When we're mid game, I rarely push workers unless I'm founding on a large island away from the mainland.

Yes, normally I'd agree. But right now we're limited to size 7 or so until we can lift our happy/health caps. Bologna is growing slowly, and can get a cottage or two and another mine, but no more concentrated effort is needed in the coming 15-20 turns.

Paris has seven cottages right now, together with shared tiles for growth and production. Add another cottage shared with Salamanca, and maybe one in the north. The chops can wait until archery.

Oxford will have lots of developed tiles in four turns, so it can swing either production or commerce at size 7.

Salamanca will need the most attention: horse pasture and road, two cottages, and probably a direct road to Paris. But there is already six developed tiles to use (though four of them are shared with Paris).

Ie, right now I think we have far too little room for further vertical growth, and once Os-Gabella gets Pyre Zombies, she becomes a far tougher target. She also has far more room to expand than we do.

Yes it is a builder set. We've 2 mature cities and 2 growing ones, I don't think we're ready for war yet. Now while it being builderish I was looking towards seeing what we can do to get ready for war, hence thinking along the lines of training yard for Oxford and going with conquest. I'm willing to continue with the Thane production, but I do think that the extra produce from Conquest will help us a lot more at this moment than Sailing (or any other tech for that matter). Our primary focus is taking out the Sheaim after all.

I like Conquest, but I've found it to be a dangerous civic, since it effectively halts the development in growing cities if they contribute to the war effort.

Ie, once Salamanca and Oxford are size 6 or 7, then we can use conquest effectively. Before that, they'd be locked into small sizes. I'd rather use this time to build military while Salamanca and Oxford can grow too.

I think from Jonas founding FoL that Amelanchier is going to be the main runt of this particular litter, and we should really look to taking him out soon after the Sheaim. We don't want him either messing up our dot map or stabbing us if someone else comes knocking. And as kjn has said, Jonas' power is not in teching but in production, so it's nice to see him found Leaves.

Agreed.

[Hart]

Time to get in on this rapport!

Some brief thoughts:
Glad the gold reserve of 100-150 is good enough. Without re-assignment, our income is +35g @ 0%, and -17 @ 100%. One turn @ 0% replaces the loss of two turns @ 100%.

Expansion: I heavily favour expansion by war. Gavelholm is a much better city site than anything else we can secure, and well worth taking. Plus, it would make this game more interesting! A t136 invasion sounds thrilling, becaese it'd be in my turnset!

Civics: Switching to Conquest before we have Sanitation would be madness, because it would require leaving Agrarianism behind, dropping those food surpluses to just 3. That's basically a mine, which we can get without suspending growth. Our improvement structure doesn't really lend towards that kind of strategy (yet). The only reason Paris even has an offset is because it's growing to meet our happy cap, so it can work another cottage.

Techs: See below for detail.

Hunting will do wonders for exploring the rest of the map, and increase our health and happy caps.

Happy cap? I don't see any beavers around...

Religion first. We should pull Kili switch now I think. We have enough cities to go with it and it does us no harm (we're happy, we want to attack Os, etc.)

It does though - we lose 10% production to military units. In Bologna, that adds up.

Workers: I usually run by a "1.5x No. of Cities" rule regarding worker count. If we got one more city, I'd probably want one more worker at least, if not two. We could probably use another worker now, if only to completely finish building cottages in Paris and Bologna. I don't think its essential.

City Specialisation
Bologna: Pretty set in stone at this point. Our axes will blot out the sun.
Paris: Commerce all the way. Micro the growth to 1 turn? Perhaps I should have done that earier, unsure (tried to maintain research rate etc).
Oxford: I agree with the suggestions on growth. Again, should have done this during the turn.
Salamanca: If we don't finish the Temple in time to be useful for the war, perhaps some Scouts? There's another forest there, and don't forget the horses..

A bit more in depth...

A bit more in depth...
Research Priorities (everything assumes 100% tech rate)
Archery [448 - 6t] - +50% chop output, can build Lumbermills, and Archers (of course); leads to Horse Archers via Stirrups [1196 - 19t]
This is pretty good! Those hammers will come in handy. Lumbermills are useful for preserving those forests and still getting hammer output. This means those two tiles we want to preserve in Bologna can still be useful! To be honest, I'm suprised we didn't grab this earlier... Lumbermills really need to be on a different tech path.
Horse Archers and Horsemen would be good against Amelanchier, who I assume will try to use Archer heavy stacks and will have Silveric promoted with Combat 5 or Drill 4 (Tholal's AI tends to default to this sort of thing). Pity HA's don't get the 40% against archers though... do promoted units retain any of their special attributes?

Hunting [687 - 9t] - Hawks and Hunters, and Deer. Leads to Rangers, blah blah.
As a guy who played the Illians a fair bit, I get really angry whenever I see Hunting. Why on earth should a tech that unlocks the only useful starting resources in the flavour location for that civ cost DOUBLE THE BEAKERS OF ANY OTHER TECH IN ITS TIER? That said, Hawks are OP. Hunters are great. And we definitely need to explore the map a bit more. And we'd be able to grab the deer health, which would help Bologna a great deal. In fact, I'd probably say this of equal priority to Archery.

Priesthood [1196 - 19t](via Philosophy) [448 - 6t] - Stonewardens/other Priests. Leads to Crusade civic and Donal Lugh, via Fanatacism [2691 - 42 t], and Chalid Astrakein via Religious Law [3588 - 56 t]
This is the line kjn was probably thinking to take without my little detour into RoK. It's a definite path to victory. Chalid is WTFOP (a win-button, basically), and Crusade is what gives the Bannor their "flavour" in the game, as far as that goes. Donal Lugh is interesting in that he gets an *item* that gives him +2 Defensive STR with a doubled defensive bonus, but otherwise he's not that impressive. But then, I've never played the Bannor before this...

Sanitation [956 - 13t] - +1F from Farms, Aqueducts, Public Baths (ew), Aquae Sucellus. Leads to Arthendain, Infirmaries (the OTHER RoK hero) via Medicine [2093 - 33t]
Usually, I consider Sanitation as one of the key mid-game techs in FFH - for the farm bonus, but we don't need it for that. The key benefit would be access to Aqueducts, to lift our rather low health caps. Bologna in particular would benefit - the production would easily finish the buiding in just 6 turns. Less if we use a chop or two!

Arete [965 - 13t] - THE MINES OF GALDUR! Also Bambur, Geurilla II promotions. Requires a state-religion switch for 13 turns.
This is something I think we should probably pursue after we have beaten Ossie, or if the war against her is particularly hard. Which it shouldn't be. Don't forget we're SPI, so religions are a good thing!

Sailing [478 - 7t] Coastal Trade Routes, Triremes and Galleys, Lighthouse, the GLh. Leads to Trade, which we all know.
This is actually a lower priority IMO, because we already have a designated expanion path - through Os-G. We can already explore the coastlines with just a work boat - I know we've seen sea-serpents and stuff around, but it's still better than not exploring that western continent at all.

Other stuff:
Warfare -> Military Strategy
Military State would be useful. Conquest too, but not at this point.

Knowledge of the Ether -> ??? -> Sorcery
This power of this one is obvious, but we lack mana (yet).
(Philosophy) -> Trade -> Deception
If no one has grabbed CoE at this stage, we might want to steal that holy city for ourselve. Nox Noctis is crazy.

There are literally so many options right now, its a bit ovewhelming. Need a clear plan ahead for the next few turnsets, for sure.

[Brian Shanahan]

We've sorted the build queue, I think. It's pretty close to what I was thinking except for a lack of workers. So now what tech should I be pushing after HBR?

[kjn]

Expansion: I heavily favour expansion by war. Gavelholm is a much better city site than anything else we can secure, and well worth taking. Plus, it would make this game more interesting! A t136 invasion sounds thrilling, becaese it'd be in my turnset!

Wouldn't it be in mine? Brian 120-129, me 130-139. Though you'd probably have to do the main work in dealing with any Sheaim counterattacks and reducing their other cities.

The alternative would be to expand to Golden, White, and push for a city south of Oxford. But that route would require Sailing, and lots of investment into settlers and workers.

Civics: Switching to Conquest before we have Sanitation would be madness, because it would require leaving Agrarianism behind, dropping those food surpluses to just 3. That's basically a mine, which we can get without suspending growth. Our improvement structure doesn't really lend towards that kind of strategy (yet). The only reason Paris even has an offset is because it's growing to meet our happy cap, so it can work another cottage.

Yes, giving up Agrarianism right now would be painful.

Happy cap? I don't see any beavers around...

Well, there is one far to the west. However, we have some movable bunches of furs around, with sharp teeth and claws.

Workers: I usually run by a "1.5x No. of Cities" rule regarding worker count. If we got one more city, I'd probably want one more worker at least, if not two. We could probably use another worker now, if only to completely finish building cottages in Paris and Bologna. I don't think its essential.

Agreed. Once we have built 10-12 axes (circa turn 140) then Bologna should probably go on settler duty, and by then Salamanca and Oxford should be well set to pitch in with additional workers too. I'm thinking of our three core production/hybrid cities, one should always focus on military, one can focus on infrastructure or expansion, and one is the swing city, going either military or expansion.

I imagine we will need a lot of workers down south once we've taken Galveholm and Grottiburg. But workers can't take cities (unless you're Doveillo).

City Specialisation
Bologna: Pretty set in stone at this point. Our axes will blot out the sun.
Paris: Commerce all the way. Micro the growth to 1 turn? Perhaps I should have done that earier, unsure (tried to maintain research rate etc).
Oxford: I agree with the suggestions on growth. Again, should have done this during the turn.
Salamanca: If we don't finish the Temple in time to be useful for the war, perhaps some Scouts? There's another forest there, and don't forget the horses..

Yes, Salamanca should go for warriors and scouts, to add some numbers to the axes.

I doubt we should look too closely at research per turn, especially not with binary research. As long as Bologna (and later Salamanca) can pick up cottages from Paris, no need to worry.

There are literally so many (research) options right now, its a bit ovewhelming. Need a clear plan ahead for the next few turnsets, for sure.

Nice overview. Yes, there is way to many options available right now.

I'd lean towards Hunting after HBR. It will allow us an extra health, more happy and culture via captured bears, and far better recon. It will also discount Archery.

Note that the two forests marked preserve around Bologna are mostly until Archery. I'd happily chop them for Mines of Gal'Dur or similar! They are mostly around for health reasons, right now. The same is true for the rest of the forests, especially around Paris.

Arete and a push for Priesthood is probably the thing I'd like after Hunting-Archery. Once that's in (and we have a few stonewardens around), we can pick up another religion. We should also look to pick up Cartography or Code of Laws to have access to City States or Aristocracy.

HAs are crazy good, but I think priesthood is more important. Sanitation isn't that high a priority right now. It's critical once we gear up to leaving Agrarianism, but not before then.

As for magic, I think we should mainly think about the level 1 spells and adepts. I think going KotE-Alteration is the best path there. Enchantment 1 and Body 1 are both very useful stack buffers, and if we want to build the tower for magic defense then we have access to life mana. But magic goes far down the list of priorities right now.

If we go for another magic tech, I think Diviniation should be number 2. It has the best tower, and we'd only need a mind node to build it (we have Law and Spirit, and can get Sun from the Empyrean shrine).

As for religion long-term:

RoK is good for Mines of Gal'Dur. We can build the temples anyway.

FoL has very good temples, and their priests are useful. Run it a few turns for a few PoLs (for bloom and tigers).

Order has excellent temples and priests for large stacks. The heroes and high priests are mediocre. We want to have lots of Confessors around.

OO will probably not give us that much. None of the other civilizations seems to have gone a water-heavy route, anyway.

Empyrean temples are quite good, but they have the worst priests in the game. Luridus's are good, however, and Chalid is awesome.

I haven't really used CoE or AV, so can't speak for them.

[Brian Shanahan]

I haven't really used CoE or AV, so can't speak for them.

CoE is garbage except for it's shrine. The invisibility is massively overpowered.

AV is probably the strongest religion in the game, you get the Ritualists with ring of fire (so good that 5 per stack is enough to weaken almost all units down to guaranteed win), you've Mardero (good mid level hero) and Meshabber is OP if you go the AC route (almost have to if you are running it through a big empire) and Rosier is a good early hero with tons of movement, perfect for Blitz or the Axe. The Profanes (High Priests) summon Balors and Ring of Fire.
Then you've got the Grimoire from the Infernal Pact giving you an essentially free run at Lib/Oracle, Beasts of Agares and Diseased Corpses (who if you've priesthood are not diseased any more). Plus you get +2 beaker temples with priest and sage slots, and happy from Reagents (making that resource marginally useful).

But most of all you've got Sacrifice of the weak. Give up four health for halved citizen food consumption? Even Sarah Palin is not stupid enough to pass that up.

The only downsides are that the Shrine gives beakers instead of gold. But that's not a bad downside. And you get hell terrain, the big one. Don't plant near deserts.

Edit: Going to play now.

[Brian Shanahan]

Well a pretty interesting turnset all round. Not too much bad things happened and one good thing did.

More on these divers phenomena anon:
<5 minutes twiddling thumbs>
</end 5 minutes twiddling thumbs>

Anon:
T119
Micro Paris for 1 turn growth.

T120
Paris maxes cottages.
The good burghers of Oxford woke up this morning to divers alarums. "Where are the divers and why are they alarming?" they sad. "Spider babies!" came the refrain from the poor divers who not only were pulled up out of the Caribbean into a strange world but had to endure:

Spider event

T121
People are flocking to the University of Salamanca due to the excellent humour of one notable student. People stop in the street marvelling at his literary talent. However more cynical members of the public point out the fact of the local fishing fleet brining in a larger and more diversified food basket.

T122
Finally the people learn to ride horses. "Now we can rest our poor feets and not work so hard no more" is the universal shout of joy. "Not so fast," says Capria, "we've still lots of shiny axes to pass around." Sages say that the presence of dangerous bears in our lands needs to be investigated and so we do. (HBR>Hunting)
However the funds for research go missing unexpectedly. While no suspicion can fall upon our glorious leader, circumspect members of the public discreetly notice the bulge in Capria's pockets.

T126
Cernunnos comes to Capria in a dream saying: "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse":

Note Jonas in GAge. I'm guessing he got a Sage and popped it.

Trembling in fear, knowing the fickleness of Cernunnos (a flash of ankle will turn his head, oh so easily), the scout attacks. In the smoke and woods none can see nor hear the battle, until:

The triumphant hero returns!

T128
Research finally comes back on. Left it so long to keep the 100 reserve and get the tech.

T129
Save.

Ok some final figures.
First the war:

The estimates for everybody are wrong, because I used the land area figures to estimate them. I only noticed this when looking at the demogs screen after inserting below. .

The scout:

He's not ready for bears yet. But given him Subdue Animal and he can pick off wounded ones at leisure.

Next the cities:

Hope the configurations are good. Was looking at things and thought this was the best for now.

Finally the demographics:

We're looking good. We're no. 2 in what matters (Jonas in GA is dropping us to 3 in GNP but that won't last) on normal measures. We have the largest army, despite my screenshot above with the estimates, and a good pop count as well.

[SIZE="3"]The save[/SIZE]

[kjn]

Everybody gets lots of golden ages but us!

Nice-looking buildup there. The cities look good. Only real quibbles are with Salamanca. It can work a riverside mine instead of a regular mine, and I think the farm next to the river should be a cottage long-term. And I think Bologna definitely could've used a cottage on the tile 1N of Patria.

Did you micro Paris to work mines, while Bologna picked up cottages during the gold turns? We get 4 gpt extra by assigning those tiles to Bologna.

So we're on track for a turn 136 declaration, using 8 axes, at least 6 warriors, 1 or 2 scouts (though I think we should leave our first animal-rated scout safe at home for upgrade to a Hunter), and 3 thanes. Lets see if I can get a chop to speed it up a turn. We will need two warriors to garrison Galveholm, and a thane to spread culture and end resistance, and some more axes to replace casualties, but I think we can end full military mode on turn 140 or so.

[Hart]

Wouldn't it be in mine? Brian 120-129, me 130-139. Though you'd probably have to do the main work in dealing with any Sheaim counterattacks and reducing their other cities.

Yeah you're right. I thought you (or I) might skip one because Brian missed out one a turn earlier?

Well, there is one far to the west. However, we have some movable bunches of furs around, with sharp teeth and claws.

I forgot about that.

I'd lean towards Hunting after HBR. It will allow us an extra health, more happy and culture via captured bears, and far better recon. It will also discount Archery.

Discounts are good.

[kjn]

Yeah you're right. I thought you (or I) might skip one because Brian missed out one a turn earlier?

That was more because I was away during the weekend. Now I'm back and kicking! :neenernee

[kjn]

Turn played; will post report as soon as it's finished. Much excitement was had, but don't worry Hart: there is still plenty of warring for you!