The Haunted Forest: Mardoc puts the Sidar to the test.

[Tasunke]

I look forward to see the Sidar fight for independence

[Mardoc]

I look forward to see the Sidar fight for independence

Speaking of - chatted with Bob, he suggested a typical Bob-crazy plan. Cool enough that it might just work, crazy enough that no one else would think of it. Mokka's Cauldron. Raises units that die in the city as demons - effectively doubles our defenses.

But...it's a good 268 hammers, requires us to go to Necromancy first, and convert our node to Death, and does nothing unless we have units die. I think I like the idea of uber Beastmasters better.

Still - I'm not certain.

Also, apparently Bob's looting the dungeons of the world. Got 3 scorps, an OO Zealot, and he keeps going.

[Selrahc]

But...it's a good 268 hammers, requires us to go to Necromancy first, and convert our node to Death, and does nothing unless we have units die. I think I like the idea of uber Beastmasters better.

If you do use Mokka's cauldron, I'd advise some experimentation in what units are resurrected as. In the few times I've seen it come into play in Single Player, I remember some odd results. Specifically I know that Mercenaries are resurrected as Champions, so it's not an exact mirror. Might be good to check that all your rangers and ghosts don't come back as warriors or something.

[Tasunke]

Im not sure Mokka's Cauldron actually requires death mana ... was that added in EitB?

one thing I don't like about it is that its pure defensive

[Mardoc]

Played the turn in a rush this morning, on my way to work. Hopefully I didn't miss anything vital.

We have a pair of new Rangers. And...we can't train DS's anymore . I ended up dithering, but deciding on just hand-building a Ranger; we can't afford to upgrade scouts, not if we're to have a hope of upgrading our well-promoted DS's and getting some Beastmasters on the board.

We have a Shade in Pacman ready to settle next turn, Rathus ready to Wane next turn and settle the turn after, and units still out in the wilderness hunting barbs. Fairly soon we'll have to call everyone home to fortify, though. I'm hoping I can at least get one more Wanable warrior, first.

We also have a Courage/Blur/Enchanted Blade adept . Courage + Medic means that our units' healing time is now extremely quick.

Planning to send the Rangers out to grab Myrean, with perhaps some DS support just in case. I think they should have good odds, though - and realistically if they don't, then we shouldn't bother.

[Thoth]

I'm not sure we can afford to take Myrean. We'll need at least a couple of units to hold the city once captured, we'll almost certainly lose a couple more along the way. I don't like splitting our forces this close to war.

We're going to be very tight for units going up against Serdoa. He's still got an awful lot of (well promoted) Horsemen that can swarm us.


Mocca's Cauldron is a very interesting idea....we still have some third and fourth ring forests to chop (~9 h +100% for GK/Industrious). AFAIK, it doesn't require Death Mana, but it does *provide* one death mana in addition to the resurection.

I think we want our next couple of Wanes as GEs. Losing the ability to build/upgrade DS's sucks. An extra 8 base hammers per turn would help a lot.

[Selrahc]

AFAIK, it doesn't require Death Mana, but it does *provide* one death mana in addition to the resurection.

You're confusing it with the rather similar Soul Forge, which adds production to cities based on nearby casualties.

Mokka's Cauldron does require Death Mana, and required it in base as well.

[Mardoc]

I'm not sure we can afford to take Myrean. We'll need at least a couple of units to hold the city once captured, we'll almost certainly lose a couple more along the way. I don't like splitting our forces this close to war.

We're going to be very tight for units going up against Serdoa. He's still got an awful lot of (well promoted) Horsemen that can swarm us.

...I think I'll check the odds with our rangers next turn. They can certainly go and come back in time, and worst case, we lose it again to the barbs after getting some capture gold, right? But by spamming Warriors it might be able to hold without any investment from our side. It might be a better place to settle our new Polar Bear, too . I'm expecting to have 90%+ odds; if we don't, then I agree it's not worth bothering. Basically - if you're right that it costs us 4-5 units, then you're also right it's not worth having at that price.

Mocca's Cauldron is a very interesting idea....we still have some third and fourth ring forests to chop (~9 h +100% for GK/Industrious). AFAIK, it doesn't require Death Mana, but it does *provide* one death mana in addition to the resurection.

No, Soul Forge is the one that provides death mana, as Selrahc says (it's at Malevolent Designs, so it's impossible for us). I probably should go chop those forests anyway, even if they're dumped into just a Ranger, there's nothing better for our workers to do anymore.

I think we want our next couple of Wanes as GEs. Losing the ability to build/upgrade DS's sucks. An extra 8 base hammers per turn would help a lot.

Um. You're going to make me simulate this with a spreadsheet, aren't you? I don't want to lose the possibility of Beastmasters (for psychological reasons, in addition to the strong unit), and we really are on the edge of whether we can get to them - 3 base beakers vs 7 might be the difference there. On the other hand - engineers would give us more Rangers. Maybe more Rangers makes up for it. I suppose if we decide to shoot for Mokka instead of Beastmasters, this is the right way to do it.

Really, Mokka is something like 268 base hammers (IIRC). Which means 134 un-bonuses hammers for us, or about 4 turns production. Probably 3 with Engineers.

The main cost to us is researching Necromancy and converting our node. That'd definitely mean no Beastmasters until a few turns into the war, and no chance of more enjoyable spells like Poisoned Blade anytime soon. OTOH - maybe we're pushing too hard for Beastmasters and not hard enough for the cash to actually acquire them. Going for Necromancy then 0% science would still let us get there a few turns after the war kicks off, but we'd likely be able to have all our DS's Rangerified instead of just a few.

Dang it...the more I talk it out, the more I think Beastmasters are just a little bit too far to push with our current resources. And we could get Mokka, the only question is whether we can get the death node made in time. I may have to spend some time in worldbuilder, see what DS's and Ghosts and Rangers turn into when they resurrect.

[Selrahc]

Dang it...the more I talk it out, the more I think Beastmasters are just a little bit too far to push with our current resources. And we could get Mokka, the only question is whether we can get the death node made in time. I may have to spend some time in worldbuilder, see what DS's and Ghosts and Rangers turn into when they resurrect.

If you're going to do it anyway...

Each unitclass seems to have one option for each tier.
T1 Melee->Skeleton(with the Demon race, as with all other creatures from the cauldron, even if you'd expect undead)
T1 Recon->Scout

T2 Melee->Diseased Corpse(!)
T2 Disciple->Savant
T2 Recon->Hellhound
T2 Arcane->Imp
T2 Cavalry->Horseman
T2 Archery->Archer
T2 Beast->Hellhound

T3 Melee->Champion
T3 Recon->Assassin
T3 Disciple->Ritualist
T3 Cavalry->Chariot
T3 Arcane->Mage
T3 Archery->(Unchecked, and I forgot to see if Arquebus count as T3 or T4)

T4 Melee->Balor
T4 Archery->Crossbowman
T4 Recon->Beastmaster (The demonic sprite for beastmaster looks awesome by the way.)
T4 Arcane->Lich
T4 Disciple->Eidolon
T4 Cavalry->Death Knight
T4 Beast(Including Dragons, Margalard, Gurid)->Beast of Agares

Hero->Nothing (AFAICT)

All units start without XP and on half health.

[Thoth]

You're confusing it with the rather similar Soul Forge, which adds production to cities based on nearby casualties.

Mokka's Cauldron does require Death Mana, and required it in base as well.

Argh. Yes, you're right. I did have them confused.

...I think I'll check the odds with our rangers next turn. They can certainly go and come back in time, and worst case, we lose it again to the barbs after getting some capture gold, right? But by spamming Warriors it might be able to hold without any investment from our side. It might be a better place to settle our new Polar Bear, too . I'm expecting to have 90%+ odds; if we don't, then I agree it's not worth bothering. Basically - if you're right that it costs us 4-5 units, then you're also right it's not worth having at that price.



No, Soul Forge is the one that provides death mana, as Selrahc says (it's at Malevolent Designs, so it's impossible for us). I probably should go chop those forests anyway, even if they're dumped into just a Ranger, there's nothing better for our workers to do anymore.


Um. You're going to make me simulate this with a spreadsheet, aren't you? I don't want to lose the possibility of Beastmasters (for psychological reasons, in addition to the strong unit), and we really are on the edge of whether we can get to them - 3 base beakers vs 7 might be the difference there. On the other hand - engineers would give us more Rangers. Maybe more Rangers makes up for it. I suppose if we decide to shoot for Mokka instead of Beastmasters, this is the right way to do it.

Really, Mokka is something like 268 base hammers (IIRC). Which means 134 un-bonuses hammers for us, or about 4 turns production. Probably 3 with Engineers.

The main cost to us is researching Necromancy and converting our node. That'd definitely mean no Beastmasters until a few turns into the war, and no chance of more enjoyable spells like Poisoned Blade anytime soon. OTOH - maybe we're pushing too hard for Beastmasters and not hard enough for the cash to actually acquire them. Going for Necromancy then 0% science would still let us get there a few turns after the war kicks off, but we'd likely be able to have all our DS's Rangerified instead of just a few.

Dang it...the more I talk it out, the more I think Beastmasters are just a little bit too far to push with our current resources. And we could get Mokka, the only question is whether we can get the death node made in time. I may have to spend some time in worldbuilder, see what DS's and Ghosts and Rangers turn into when they resurrect.

If things are going to be that tight then yes, checking out the numbers carefully is a very good idea. If we are going Mokka, then Necromancy needs to be our next tech in order for us to have enough time to build the node and the Wonder in time.