[NO PLAYERS]Map Thread[SPOILERS]

[Serdoa]

If you are a player of this game (PBEM33 if you forgot where you are) then leave now. This thread covers the map production and will contain heavy spoilers. Looking at the map beforehand will only spoil your own fun and won't give you any advantage at all.

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Ok, that should be enough space that nobody accidentally clicking here should see anything.

[Serdoa]

Ok, the aim is a toroidal map for 5 players which is balanced and not necessarily mirrored. Place for around 10-12 cities. No barbs. Boats should play a role but should not be needed for contact.

As for the non-mirrored but balanced part I scratch my head. Some of our really good mapmakers might be able to do that but I am none of them. I believe those guys that they won't complain but I still would like my map to be fair to everyone. I have an idea though, not necessarily a good one of course but we'll come to that later. First, the general map idea, mirrored on all 8 sites so everyone gets a better idea how the map will play as toroidal:



If nobody tells me a game-breaking flaw of this idea, I will stick with it.

Looking at the map in a greater scope, thats the concept I have right now for it. C = Capital. It would be great if someone could tell me if there is enough place to blob 10-12 cities down for each player (I am unsure about it, though I think there is) and if the 20 tile lake I made is enough to produce boats.



edit: Also, looking at the map, should I put 2 mountains east of the capitals to close that land passage? That would make sure that no one can get eliminated after 9 turns, just because someone send his warrior straight onto the neighbours capital.

[dazedroyalty]

I like the concept. I think you could reasonably get 10-12 cities in there purely based on land availability. The level of resources and green land could encourage more or less founding. I'll look forward to screenshots.

[T-hawk]

As for the non-mirrored but balanced part I scratch my head.

Fake mirroring is one solution. Everybody gets functionally equivalent stuff, but swap like wheat for corn, spices for silk, clam for crab, sugar for banana. Maybe also shift rivers and plains/grassland around a little bit.

Yes, the 20 tile lake will allow ship production. Boats will also be able to cross to the nearest L-lake by two city/fort canal connections, and from there to every other L-lake by one city/fort. That probably isn't a good thing, since a player could get attacked navally like that but be unable to build his own ships on the smaller lake to fight back.

Don't block that land passage, that makes the map extremely closed and defensive and builder-ish. You could tweak things to ensure early visibility of an incoming warrior, like put a hill first-ring from the capital site in that direction. Or a single peak 4N 2W of each capital to make an incoming warrior take an extra turn.

[Serdoa]

Hey T-hawk, thanks for the comments. I had already closed the connection on the map though, so I left it for the first map screenshot as it is, just so we all get a feel what we talk about. Opening this passage means only 9 tiles separating the capitals. I fear - this being a greens game - that this might lead to one being taken out quite early. If I close the connection the land passage becomes 15 tiles, though you are prone to settle in that direction anyway due to a gold there.

Well, map now. Big one:

And smaller:

So, open questions:

1.) Enough but not too many trees?
2.) Enough but not too many rivers?
3.) Passage should be kept open between caps or not?
4.) Too many / not enough (food) resources?
5.) Pre-settling their capitals? <- I feel strongly about doing it, especially if the decision for 3 is to open the passage
6.) Anything important forgotten?
7.) Good map or should I delete and start anew?

Thanks everyone who takes the time to read, look and answer those

edit: 8.) Should I let them know in the tech-thread how to identify bodys of water which allow ship-building? That should make them aware of the problem and with a side comment that boats can indeed be important will hopefully make everyone aware that they should get at least one port-city.

[T-hawk]

I might put a few more trees at the capitals to get things going a bit quicker. Same for rivers, and some flood plains and deserts would make the area more interesting.

I do think the land passage should be open. Otherwise nobody will conquer anybody. They have to walk all the way around those lakes and any attack will be seen coming a million miles away.

The capital site looks really awkward - fish in the BFC without coastal access, so it's only got dry wheat for food until another city is settled on that lake. As it stands, it's quite a bit stronger to move the initial settler 3S 2E for wheat, wet corn, and silver. Maybe expand the big lake to get the capital true coastal access with seafood readily accessible.

Big concern: The stone and marble islands are inaccessible, since their surrounding lakes are too small to allow building galleys. They can be settled by bringing a galley by fort canal from the largest sea, but that sort of trickiness probably shouldn't really be thrown at a greens game. Overall I'm not sold on the idea of those lakes - probably best to just make them all 20+ tiles so they function as normal bodies of water.

[Serdoa]

Ok, if nobody else chimes in I will open that land passage but pre-settle the capitals.

As for Stone and Marble I am thinking about deleting the 3 tiles between them (below banana and above wheat). That would make it one big lake, with more then 20 tiles.

Also I'll extend that lake above the capitals by one tile to make the capital itself coastal. But I think I'll let that small (non-boatable) lake otherwise as it is. If we on one hand don't think it is fair to expect from a greens game to build forts to access the stone and marble then on the other hand I don't think we should expect it for the small lake. And if someone does, then he deserves that, doesn't he?

Lastly as for more floodplains and deserts: I like neither the one nor the other. Deserts are just dead tiles and the map itself is not so big that I want many tiles to be dead. Floodplains I'll take a closer look if I can get some put down somewhere, but I feel that map has enough food as it is.

Regarding rivers, I might add a few. I don't want to have them all over the place though. That just leads to cottage spam and I don't think that in the end the one spamming the most cottages should win.

Trees at the capital: There are 5 right now, you really think it should be more T-hawk? I am a little bit reluctant on that, because I fear to make India too strong if I add more trees.

[T-hawk]

I don't think that in the end the one spamming the most cottages should win.

But that's how Civ 4 always works. Just ask Sullla or Krill.

Trees at the capital: There are 5 right now, you really think it should be more T-hawk? I am a little bit reluctant on that, because I fear to make India too strong if I add more trees.

Up to you. The map start normalizer often blankets the capital BFC in forests, like up to 15. I guess I'm just used to seeing that. You're right that they unbalance in India's favor, though.

[scooter]

But that's how Civ 4 always works. Just ask Sullla or Krill.

Or the winner of every NTT game we've ever had here .

I really like the general map concept, looks like a fun one . I tend to agree you probably don't want to add much/any forests just so that India doesn't blow everyone away. I also agree on pre-settling the capitals - in this kind of game it might be best if the players are "saved from themselves" - I'd hate to see a player talk himself into a really bad decision just because of inexperience. Also makes balancing the surrounding land easier so a player doesn't stumble onto an amazing capital by sheer luck.

[T-hawk]

Also makes balancing the surrounding land easier so a player doesn't stumble onto an amazing capital by sheer luck.

Yeah, I just saw this: Move 3S from the starting position, and the capital gets wheat, corn, sheep, silver, copper, and iron!