Learning Capria FFH SG

[kjn]

First Oxford, Coimbra and Bologna are my three preferred cities as well. I'd like a fourth in Paris too, as that is our best science city as well. A variant within the variant would be to have libraries elsewhere, even in pure production spots.

Yes. Paris should have a library too, of course, but it can't build it as fast as the rest of the cities. Salamanca also has non-trivial commerce, but I think the GLH should be finished there first.

Second I was looking at the cities and there are a large number where we could use courthouses now, most cities without are well above 4 gpt per city. There are a number of cities coming near the end of builds, so expect a few more courthouses up and running.

Agree.

Third I put Praha towards hammers without taking it off cottages, doubling the growth time but halving Summer Palace build time. If we're going to colonise the south this will be a key building, and Praha is the best spot by far.

You can put in a few chops too, I think.

Fourth I like Domir a lot, unfortunately we've not the forces in the area to capture it (well keeping enough to stave off Emo-Boys sneak attack is sensible). I'll hold the horsemen in Golden until it's safely guarded then run them up with a few Axes out of St. Andrews (you do know Scotland isn't yet a country, kjn?) and see if I can take it. I'll probably push up the hunter by St. Andrews to keep an eye on it too, before the push.

It was at the time of founding. And it depends on who you ask. Or we're following football rules :neenernee

You saw the sign about Mokka? And we also have to handle Auric's settling party.

Fifth. Bolonga keeps pushing settlers for the south and Oxford Archers to cover them. With 13 workers we should have enough to cover the development, but I may mix in a few more into that out of Bolonga.

You get the plan for settling Whale?

Sixth on tech, finish priesthood, run through KotE and bulb Alteration. If I still have time I think we should take Honour, just to begin getting our money's worth out of Dies Diei.

The more I think about it, the more I like a Golden Age instead of bulbing. Bulbing will give ~800 beakers post-discount; the GA would likely give almost as many, and increased production and GPP. We have six large mature cities, and several more under decent development. Alteration also doesn't have any first-to bonus.

I'm thinking of using the GA together with Arete+Pacifism on our next civics switch, and using lots of specialists in Coimbra and maybe another city.

We need Way of the Wise for Honor as well.

[Brian Shanahan]

You get the plan for settling Whale?

Settle whale first, got it. But I'll be looking to settle even more if I can.

Oh and I've my own SG proposal up.

[kjn]

I was more thinking about my efficient settling plan. It's not hard, but it requires a bit of timing and some micro.

Just saw the SG proposal. I'm not sold on EitB, though. I will probably look into Magister's modmod and Tholal's new path.

[haphazard1]

The planning sounds generally good to me, Brian. A few thoughts:

- Courthouses are expensive, and a city with 4-5 gpt maintenance will only save 1.6-2.0 gpt. We just got Festivals, so let's build markets before courthouses. Cheaper to build so we get results sooner, and we get as good or better an overall gain.

- Libraries as discussed for the 3 we need to qualify for the Great Library. But we should definitely add these in other cities that have enough commerce to justify them. A library giving 4+ additional bpt is worth more than a courthouse saving 2 gpt.

- Tech path. Let's finish Priesthood so we can take advantage of Stonewardens and Vicars. Vicars can be used for instant temple and (I believe?) guaranteed spread, giving us the temple benefits and a boost to the shrine since we have it (thanks again, Os-Gabella! ). Stonewardens can be quite useful too. And someone can un-wither that hunter.

After Priesthood I do like Sanitation for more food and happiness. I think going via Construction is worth it -- we have a lot of rivers slowing movement through our territory, and chain irrigation could be useful for several cities especially if we stick with aristofarms for a while. Or we could trade with Jonas for Construction...not sure I like that overall, I would have to look at how much he would demand for it.

- Pushing to settle Whale is definitely a priority now that our cities have 2 TRs apiece. And starting to colonize the south is also important for the resources, plus some of those cities will be quite strong. I know there was some discussion earlier in the thread -- do we have a final dotmap and settlement order agreed upon? Or does this need more discussion? For that matter, which tile will Whale be on? The tundra tile?

[kjn]

- Courthouses are expensive, and a city with 4-5 gpt maintenance will only save 1.6-2.0 gpt. We just got Festivals, so let's build markets before courthouses. Cheaper to build so we get results sooner, and we get as good or better an overall gain.

OTOH, Markets also reduce beaker output, so the effective yield from the Market is only about +2.2 gold (if a beaker is valued as 0.8 gold) - even less if you have beaker multipliers. The Courthouse also scales with empire development.

- Libraries as discussed for the 3 we need to qualify for the Great Library. But we should definitely add these in other cities that have enough commerce to justify them. A library giving 4+ additional bpt is worth more than a courthouse saving 2 gpt.

Of course, that depends on the slider, and how much commerce the city is generating. The library depends on the slider; the courthouse doesn't.

- Tech path. Let's finish Priesthood so we can take advantage of Stonewardens and Vicars. Vicars can be used for instant temple and (I believe?) guaranteed spread, giving us the temple benefits and a boost to the shrine since we have it (thanks again, Os-Gabella! ). Stonewardens can be quite useful too. And someone can un-wither that hunter.

We can't build Vicars until we research Honor (of course, Vicars are arguably the worst priests in the game). A few Stonewardens would be very helpful, but I doubt we will need more than two or three (Shield of Faith is a permanent spell, unlike Bless).

After Priesthood I do like Sanitation for more food and happiness. I think going via Construction is worth it -- we have a lot of rivers slowing movement through our territory, and chain irrigation could be useful for several cities especially if we stick with aristofarms for a while. Or we could trade with Jonas for Construction...not sure I like that overall, I would have to look at how much he would demand for it.

Jonas has a monopoly on Construction, and our chief rival. I doubt he will trade it away, and I'm far from sure we should. Giving him Philosophy would be unwise, I think.

- Pushing to settle Whale is definitely a priority now that our cities have 2 TRs apiece. And starting to colonize the south is also important for the resources, plus some of those cities will be quite strong. I know there was some discussion earlier in the thread -- do we have a final dotmap and settlement order agreed upon? Or does this need more discussion? For that matter, which tile will Whale be on? The tundra tile?

No final dotmap. Hart's two proposed city placements are linked from the first post. I put in some signs for my proposed sites in the save, but I'm open to alternatives.

For Whale the tundra tile (SE of the crab) seems like the best place. Crab and horse first-ring, and whale second-ring. I think we will have space for at least one more city on the island, and should probably ferry over a hunter as well, to check for animals and hawk the environs.

[haphazard1]

OTOH, Markets also reduce beaker output, so the effective yield from the Market is only about +2.2 gold (if a beaker is valued as 0.8 gold) - even less if you have beaker multipliers. The Courthouse also scales with empire development.

Even if you treat the beaker as equal to 1 gold (we have nothing yet that boosts either gold or beaker output, other than academies), the market is still worth 2 gpt net. That is as good as a courthouse for any city with maintenance of 5.0 or less, and markets are cheaper/faster to build than courthouses. And 5.0 or less is true for many of our cities, and will be true for more once the Summer Palace completes.

Courthouses do scale with empire development, but increasing city maintenance costs is generally a slow process. For a lot of our cities, I think a market first and a courthouse later (assuming we have hammers free and no more urgent needs in that specific city) will give us a better payoff in terms of gold saved per hammer invested, and we will get some of that payoff sooner.

Of course, that depends on the slider, and how much commerce the city is generating. The library depends on the slider; the courthouse doesn't.

Very true. But I don't think we are going to drop our slider to zero (at least not for long). But I think some cities other than the main three will have enough commerce to justify a library. The choice can be determined for each city.

We can't build Vicars until we research Honor (of course, Vicars are arguably the worst priests in the game). A few Stonewardens would be very helpful, but I doubt we will need more than two or three (Shield of Faith is a permanent spell, unlike Bless).

I had not realized the Honor issue; we captured the cities with Empyrean and do not have the tech ourselves. Another something learned.

What is your general approach to spreading a faith to new cities? Use a thane to spread, or use a priest to build temple and spread? Other?

Jonas has a monopoly on Construction, and our chief rival. I doubt he will trade it away, and I'm far from sure we should. Giving him Philosophy would be unwise, I think.

I agree. If we could get it for something not-so-useful that would be great, but as a monopoly tech it doesn't seem likely. I do think it would be a useful tech to have.

I need to check the save once I am home from work. What do the graphs look like for Flauros? A powerful Calabim civ is not something I want to see, but if they are fighting with Jonas I would dislike it less.

[kjn]

Even if you treat the beaker as equal to 1 gold (we have nothing yet that boosts either gold or beaker output, other than academies), the market is still worth 2 gpt net. That is as good as a courthouse for any city with maintenance of 5.0 or less, and markets are cheaper/faster to build than courthouses. And 5.0 or less is true for many of our cities, and will be true for more once the Summer Palace completes.

Heh. The main part of me arguing against the markets is that I view them as crappily designed buildings (just as the ECs, but I don't view the ECs as being as bad).

I thought a bit on how much the Summer palace could save. I assume it will only affect distance management.

Praha 2.21 -> 0
Krakow 2.02 -> 0.9
Coimbra 2.02 -> 0.75
Wien 1.14 -> 0.9

So about 5 saved gpt per turn. I'm pretty certain city size is factored in there, since Coimbra has higher distance maintenance than St Andrews right now!

Very true. But I don't think we are going to drop our slider to zero (at least not for long). But I think some cities other than the main three will have enough commerce to justify a library. The choice can be determined for each city.

Yes. Paris should definitely get a library, and Salamanca too (after the GLH).

What is your general approach to spreading a faith to new cities? Use a thane to spread, or use a priest to build temple and spread? Other?

Priests are better. You get the temple too, ie instead of spending 60+120 hammers you only spend 120. Of course, we are SPI, so it's 60+60 hammers, but we can build the priests in mature cities.

I agree. If we could get it for something not-so-useful that would be great, but as a monopoly tech it doesn't seem likely. I do think it would be a useful tech to have.

And it's required for Engineering too.

I need to check the save once I am home from work. What do the graphs look like for Flauros? A powerful Calabim civ is not something I want to see, but if they are fighting with Jonas I would dislike it less.

Flauros has almost as low a score as Auric, and even worse power. That I managed to trade Education to him should says it all.

[Brian Shanahan]

Biggest problem with markets is that they don't cut costs. At 100% research they will give the equivalent of +2gpt in beakers (when factoring in any multipliers running too) but they will not make a whit of difference in gold bleed. So in effect they only give you gold if you're running the slider at below b/e point.

Courthouses do cut costs, not quite as well as with BtS but they still are designed to do this. Therefore in a situation where we can generate a nice bit of cash but have high maintenance a building designed to cut our costs down will come out better than one designed to raise the amount of gold collected. Of course the opposite works if we're in a civ with relatively low costs and commerce production.

[Mardoc]

Brian, I don't really understand your point. Aren't you saying the biggest problem with apples is that they're not oranges?

I'm especially confused what you mean by:

At 100% research they will give the equivalent of +2gpt in beakers (when factoring in any multipliers running too) but they will not make a whit of difference in gold bleed. So in effect they only give you gold if you're running the slider at below b/e point.

[haphazard1]

I agree with Mardoc that Brian's statement was a bit confusing. What I think Brian was getting at is that markets lower your max research rate -- you can produce fewer bpt at 100% slider. And this is true.

But unless your economy is so strong that you can run at 100% all the time (or almost all the time), the net gain in gold from markets allows a higher slider setting and more overall research. And given our current economy and breakeven point, markets will certainly help us overall even if our bpt goes down slightly at any given slider setting -- the gold will allow us to raise the slider.

I am certainly not arguing against courthouses. I think we should have both markets and courthouses. But given our relatively low breakeven point, markets will help us and since they are cheaper I think we should build them before courthouses to get some benefit earlier.