WW11 - Civilization

[Cyneheard]

I find it interesting that Cyneheard has not commented at all on the accusations by me and MJW. I'm not saying there are clear answers that you could give, but you've ignored them completely. Are you hoping they are simply forgotten as the time passes by, since you have only one vote on your back? Sorry, you're still one of my top suspect :neenernee.

"I'm sticking to my original RP Gaspar vote because I don't see any other clear suspects yet, but let's keep talking, and not just about MJW."

Why do you need to underline the fact that you are still voting for someone, while not adding anything new to the table?

Why did you feel it necessary to create a big list of players who have not posted, when the game had been going on under 3 hours?

In general I'm getting a feeling that you are simply trying to stay as active as possible to avoid suspicion. Of course that is important for the good guys as well, but in your case it seems a bit too forced.

Ichabod said: "But I also know that it was a better argument then "Napoleon invaded Portugal, so I'll vote for Napoleon". It was a serious argument, at least. And that's why it's a good place for wolves to bandwagon. And since no one gave the same justification that led to my argument, I tend to beleive that there was, indeed, some wolf bandwagon action there."

I thought about this earlier and wondered why Cyneheard has not picked any votes besides mine and MJW's. There's definitely good enough excuses for at least one of the NAP to throw more fire to this (assuming that MJW isn't one). Maybe it's because the big bandwagons are trying to divert attention away from him? *tinfoil hat*

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Then there is Catwalk, and I'm totally agreeing with Selrahc's comments regarding him. I find it odd that you had to underline the difference in your play style by yourself. Better to do it quickly before anyone else points a finger at it?



And as Selrahc quoted, http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=137

I'm getting a feeling that your topics on the technologies and post counts are there just to keep yourself active and talking, in contrast of trying to really help us to find the bad guys.

You made a "backup vote" on MJW in post http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=112

And in the next post you even had a better target in mind, Zakalwe. http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=116

So what is the point of voting MJW again? I'm thinking just to keep the talk going (for yourself).

You said that zakalwe's three posts were largely without content, but then you claim to have missed the post where Zak mentioned being busy. How is that even possible, if you had just read his three messages?

Gaspar said: "Anyway, wolves have typically cowed away from zak so I find someone stepping into that particular breach boldly to be stupid rather than evil. And yes, I do think hitting zak on post count is stupid."

This has been the topic in the previous games as well, so going against Zak is actually a smart thing to do. After all, no wolf would be stupid enough to do it, right?

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In conclusion I think it's more than likely that the bad guys have more pressure on staying active, especially in the beginning of the game where you can basically just talk and not present any serious accusations. That's how I felt as well when playing a wolf in different forum. So far Cyneheard and Catwalk seem to have the biggest need to stay active, even when they would not have much to add

I see your post, I'll look at it after work in detail, so 9-10 hours or so. I only have a few minutes now, and won't make WW posts from my phone at work. That's just a bad idea when I miss enough stuff reading the forum normally.

And in WW10 the last time I jumped all over a day 1 vote or two, I got smacked down HARD, so, yes, I let it go.

[Catwalk]

Then there is Catwalk, and I'm totally agreeing with Selrahc's comments regarding him. I find it odd that you had to underline the difference in your play style by yourself. Better to do it quickly before anyone else points a finger at it?

I tend to speak my mind in a somewhat rambling and open-mouthed manner. I think I made a similar post in the last game though, as I really am trying to improve my game and cause less distraction.

I'm getting a feeling that your topics on the technologies and post counts are there just to keep yourself active and talking, in contrast of trying to really help us to find the bad guys.

We have 3 days to discuss hardly anything. I reasoned that the NAP already knows what useful info there might be about those techs (having a sample of 4 to analyze as opposed to rest of us having 1), so I think it's potentially beneficial to the town to know about it. I didn't see it doing any harm, and I don't think it derailed the discussion. Given that I've already posted a whole bunch about suspicions and stuck my neck out, I don't think I had a need to appear helpful at the point of that post.

You made a "backup vote" on MJW in post http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=112

The backup vote was in reference to not wanting the vote to be split. Someone else made a comment to that effect shortly before me.

And in the next post you even had a better target in mind, Zakalwe. http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=116

I thought MJW was starting to look like a strong candidate, and I didn't want all day to be centered around him. I wanted to pursue other leads and keep my vote there to indicate my suspicion and invite others to join.
So what is the point of voting MJW again? I'm thinking just to keep the talk going (for yourself). I brought up the zakalwe suspicion because that was next on my list, thinking that 24h passed was enough to start looking at who had been active and who hadn't. I didn't even switch votes for it, just wanted other people's opinion on what I thought looked like a legitimate suspicion. I don't know why I missed zakalwe's post saying he's busy, possibly because I had a hard time reading through the RP and skimmed past it. I think my point that he didn't really post anything stands.

In conclusion I think it's more than likely that the bad guys have more pressure on staying active, especially in the beginning of the game where you can basically just talk and not present any serious accusations. That's how I felt as well when playing a wolf in different forum. So far Cyneheard and Catwalk seem to have the biggest need to stay active, even when they would not have much to add

I think me and Cyneheard are alike in that we like discussing. A high post count may very well simply be indicative of having fun with it, and it matches both of our profiles from previous games. That's not to defend Cyneheard as I agree with it being weird that he wanted to look at silent players after only 3h, we just seem to fit the same player profile quite well.

[Ichabod]

For what its worth, I always think its suspicious when someone flips out in the joke vote stage. So that Lewwyn didn't flip doesn't really mean anything to me.

And honestly this latest outburst is WAY over the top for day one. Knowing Lewwyn this could be because he's having a bad day and hence is taking it out on us. It could also be because he's wolf tapping into his inner rage to look genuine. Lewwyn and I have similar... temperaments (not really, but we both have a bit of a temper.) I absolutely lost it in WW7 by just tapping into anger from other sources. MJW loves to say its hard to fake emotion but its not hard to fake anything if you act it out rather than try and craft it. For example, let's say I'm a NAPster. Later on, a dogpile starts forming on me and its led by Lewwyn. I couldn't get angry at him for accusing me, because he's right. But I can very easily get angry at Lewwyn for stuff he's done to me in PBEM14 and PBEM29. So I just tap into those incidents - I might be typing about the game, but I'm thinking about map trades or inconvenient chokes.

My point is, just because someone loses it doesn't mean they're innocent. Maybe a first timer who hasn't been around the block a few times. But definitely not an experienced player. You have to look at the content of the rage - is this a plausible reason to be this angry? I definitely think Lewwyn's anger to legitimate reason ratio is off here. But I also know that I pretty much always think Lewwyn is a wolf so I'm going to go agnostic here. I just wanted to make sure we didn't use his rant to put him in the safely innocent camp. Other than that, someone else is going to have to figure out Lewwyn.

Anyway, pretty much every game I try to get traction on novice because its too important to figure out his guilt or innocence early and every game I can't do it unless zak decides to go along with me. So I'm keeping the vote on novice until either someone else massively screws up or it gains some traction. Plus if we're going to send anyone to the gulag, might as well be the Viking who's comfortable in cold already.

Well, about Lewwyn, I decided to unvote before going to sleep because I wanted to see what would he respond to my last post. If he had written a quick reply or no reply at all, it wouldn't fit with his previous rage, which would make it appear as fake and crafted (because he'd have stopped doing it after he got his objective of switching my vote).

Of course, I wouldn't expect him to really not answer at all, because that would be too obvious. HWat makes me now think that he was genuinely raging is that he made considerations about me being suspicious or not. He decided I don't look suspicious, but what matters is that he made this considerations. It shows me that he didn't want just to defend, but he was also looking for suspects, which is a villager thing.

First off I'm not voting Lewwyn yet.

But let me point out a post of Villager-Lewwyn from WW 10:


Here he identifies me correctly as wolf by using the unvote-Argument. ow the thing is he is quite similar to me in playing (although he switches less than me). Usual Lewwyn makes a vote and stays with it. He might switch (and he done some switching too in past games too) but he hates unvote.
His explanation about nother game style influencing him holds no water because he did not offer another vote to go with it.
For me it looks a lot as if he got cought redhanded by Ichabod and is now tryiong to regain some credibility (and cow others into not-voting him with his rage)

Therefor: Lewwyn

IIRC in WW6 you voted for me in the very firstpost and kept it until my death on day1.
In WW7 you vted for uberfish stayed there along time then switched twice before returning to uberfish (who died).
In both cases you were a villager and very happy to lynch the villager you have voted in the first post. Are you now telling me that suddenly you don't make your mind up early?
For me this speaks even more of a wolfish-Lewwyn.

This shows that maybe I was having a wrong impression of Lewwyn. I remember him switching in previous games to put pressure on more targets. I guess I was wrong, then.

Its not a WW game without Lewwyn going off the rails at somebody

I was starting to get a bit suspicious of a guiding hand on catwalk, but the random theories are starting to come out now

I also noticed that Catwalk sounded a little bit more with what I've seen in previous games from him in the last posts.

And in the next post you even had a better target in mind, Zakalwe. http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....tcount=116

So what is the point of voting MJW again? I'm thinking just to keep the talk going (for yourself).

You said that zakalwe's three posts were largely without content, but then you claim to have missed the post where Zak mentioned being busy. How is that even possible, if you had just read his three messages?

Gaspar said: "Anyway, wolves have typically cowed away from zak so I find someone stepping into that particular breach boldly to be stupid rather than evil. And yes, I do think hitting zak on post count is stupid."

This has been the topic in the previous games as well, so going against Zak is actually a smart thing to do. After all, no wolf would be stupid enough to do it, right?

It's worth noticing that Catwalk didn't vote for Zakalwe (at least not in the quoted post). So while he attacked him, he didn't actually put the pressure. This seems consistent with the idea of "I'm going to go for Zakalwe since a wolf would never do it", because by not placing the vote, there's less chance of the unwanted side effect of this strategy: Zakalwe coming for you.

That was some good points by Meiz, but, like I said above, Catwalk seemed more like his usual self to me in the last posts.

About Cyneheard, I didn't pay much attention to all the discussion around MJW and a lot of that posts skipped me (when a lot of the posts by Cyneheard were made). I'll have to take a look.

[scooter]

Ok I keep seeing people say that my MJW thing was pre-planned which is not really true, so I think I should clarify in order:

1) I had no plans going into this game other than I was going to be a bit more relaxed and less chatty. I halfway assumed I'd be werewolf because I always seem to roll werewolf.
2) I got my villager PM and went "oh cool, this'll be fun - wanted to try this again" so I checked the thread from my phone. It still had the "don't post" message so whatever
3) Got back to my computer, saw the message was gone and nobody posted, so I threw down the obligatory Uberfish joke vote since he's ALWAYS werewolf.
4) And NOW I started thinking about strategy for the first time. I figured Day1 is such a stab-in-the-dark joke, I figured it'd be wise to try to get reads on some of the more difficult players. I noticed MJW was in the game, so I slapped my vote down on him and hoped I could get an early read on him. I did - he seemed to me to be an innocent lean, though I'm not 100% convinced yet (others look safer than he does), but convinced enough that I probably won't vote for him today.

I'd argue it was helpful for the village too. Instead of half the day being joke votes and goofy role-play, we actually got real conversation started. You are all welcome by the way . Random comments aimed at or about certain people:

Cyneheard - Why do you keep reminding us how you've been "such a terrible villager" in the past? Starting to feel like a convenient wolf excuse to be not as helpful. Though the insisting we move on from MJW rather than continue being distracted struck me as a pro-village move.

Lewwyn - Reading all his posts in retrospect... I still believe his rage looked a bit forced, but everything since then lined up with how I'd think a villager Lewwyn would act. Like Cyneheard, I've got mixed feelings here.

Ichabod - feels very innocent to me. There seems to be some notable effort to actually find wolves rather than the time I played wolf with him and it was long-winded posts that didn't say much and were always "calculated" - accusing safe people only.

Slowcheetah - Thread says he's posted in here somewhere but I nearly forgot he was playing. Again, I don't like lynching newbies on day1, but if I was a wolf with a newbie on my team I'd be instructing him to stay really quiet day1 and gradually ease himself in because rarely does a village do anything better than jump at shadows on day1.

Zakalwe - Your messages are getting to the point here they're almost as difficult to parse as MJW's. I could care less about post count, but I'm really surprised you haven't had more thoughts so far. Your posts have just been goofy role-play and low-content which is not typical villager Zak.

[Mardoc]

Zakalwe - Your messages are getting to the point here they're almost as difficult to parse as MJW's. I could care less about post count, but I'm really surprised you haven't had more thoughts so far. Your posts have just been goofy role-play and low-content which is not typical villager Zak.

Ah, so I'm not the only one reminded of Zakofonix. It's a hard thing to say, since Zakalwe is much more enjoyable to read when he's a wolf, but it does seem suspicious.

On a related note - who's Angry Scorpion, anyway? I haven't been able to parse Zak's latest vote.

[Mardoc]

On a related note - who's Angry Scorpion, anyway? I haven't been able to parse Zak's latest vote.

Dang it, I'm normally better at checking my work before I post. I meant Toxic Scorpion, of course.

[scooter]

Ah, so I'm not the only one reminded of Zakofonix.

This is exactly what was running through my head when I typed that. He was funny and goofy and much more laid-back... and he was a werewolf. The difference is pretty pronounced and I can't help but notice similarities here.

[zakalwe]

Zakalwe - Your messages are getting to the point here they're almost as difficult to parse as MJW's. I could care less about post count, but I'm really surprised you haven't had more thoughts so far. Your posts have just been goofy role-play and low-content which is not typical villager Zak.

Good point! I must be scum figuring that if I just keep my head low, nobody will suspect me.

Anyway, you're both wrong. Zakofonix was much funnier than Shitting Bull.

[novice]

Dang it, I'm normally better at checking my work before I post. I meant Toxic Scorpion, of course.

Tokugawa / Scooter.

This is exactly what was running through my head when I typed that. He was funny and goofy and much more laid-back... and he was a werewolf. The difference is pretty pronounced and I can't help but notice similarities here.

Good point. I'm inclined to give him some time though. Plus Zakofonix is too fun to lynch anyway.

About Cyneheard, I didn't pay much attention to all the discussion around MJW and a lot of that posts skipped me (when a lot of the posts by Cyneheard were made). I'll have to take a look.

The Ichabod I remember misses nothing. And the "I have to take a look" phrase reminds me of wolf Ichabod in WW7.

Unvote, vote Ichabod.

[novice]

Reading back, I'm willing to give Zak time to become less relaxed and fun.

Let's see if he can combine relaxed and fun with scum-hunting instead.