WW11 - Civilization

[Mardoc]

You see He who believes he might die does not vote for the leader (Tasunke) but votes for Jkaen. Making it a 5/5/4 instead of a 4/6/4. Isn't that strange?

But even more strange he was completly right. The next votes are cyneheard switching from Tasunke to Jkaen and Tasunke himself sealing the deal. Good advanced knowledge scooter you should work as an oracle

Rowain, the trouble is, scooter's already established what's either his reason or his excuse - Tasunke's a newbie, and scooter doesn't vote newbies when things are close.

I might believe that both he and scooter are wolves, perhaps; they have done some other suspicious things. Although that seems maybe too obvious?

I have real trouble believing that you've identified three of the four, though.

[Mardoc]

I agree with slowcheetah also being a good candidate, although I still think his actions match his personality in general (slow, shy and cautious).

What's matching his personality got to do with anything? You think he'd change radically due to drawing wolf?

No, the real problem is that a village can't afford that personality. If he's innocent, he's going to have to make an effort to come out of his shell and prove it to us (and help find wolves). If he's unwilling to help, then I'm happy to remove him from the game. It almost doesn't matter if he's unwilling because he's a wolf or because he's shy, he'll drag the village down either way.

[zakalwe]

I just found it peculiar that MJW was brought up at a time that he was irrelevant to the decision.

Just to reiterate (may as well since there isn't much else to comment on currently), he wasn't irrelevant to my decision. I commented on MJW since Scooter's innocent read on MJW was another indication to me that Scooter might be faking his reads.

I am not impressed with how you've parked your vote on me after I have refuted your arguments. You said you wanted "my take on" something, I provided it, and you then said you "don't buy my explanation", so your neutral request for information has suddenly evolved into a concrete suspicion. You also wanted Selrahc's take, so why not move your vote to him, to provoke a response from him, too? Perhaps you had already decided to park your vote in a "safe" place on me, and just viewed my prompt answer to your question as an inconvenient annoyance?

[Ichabod]

Basically, if I assume Rowain == werewolf, his actions don't make sense. If I assume Rowain == villager, his actions don't make sense either. So um... I don't know what to think.

That was my thought exactly, so I also don't know what to think. It doesn't help that I wasn't on to see the voting happening. And Rowain last post was very good too.

I don't really have much to say about either of them. They both did some minor things that might be suspicious, but for now I'm happy to vote with them if we can agree on a target. I don't think anyone of us are dumb enough to trust the others, but it's also a matter of keeping your paranoia in check so that you can actually find people to work with. I could certainly understand if you suspect one (or more?) of us, if you're innocent, since we all piled on to you at one point yesterday. I would appreciate a more specific accusation, though. A loose question like that, directed at all three of us, seems more like something a wolf Ichabod might say in order to break up a powerful voting block.

Why aren't you voting for anyone? It's only day 2, and like Lewwyn says, there are plenty of good targets to choose from. No reason to hold back.

This is a pretty odd question. I certainly don't feel as though the three of us have suddenly become fast friends this game. I like and respect them both greatly as members of the RB community but generally think they both get too much of a free pass in these games. Novice has already stated I basically read null for him and I have already expressed the same issue. Zakalwe I basically start at assuming wolf and then let him work his way to the innocent camp. I do that because I think he's too good at herding cats to be left unchecked and few of the other "respected voices" seem willing to do so.

In a more direct response to the question - it neither bothers nor encourages me when we see the same targets. If they're NAP members then we're probably going to need a more smoking gun to get the votes on them anyway so I'm happy enough to go after other targets for the time being.

Honestly, for as much as they're often a vote bloc they're also two very different kettles of fish. novice is insightful but he's also not a cat-herder. So an evil zak is more dangerous to the village as a whole but also easier to catch because he talks a lot more. That's usually why I try to jump on novice early - he's like smoke so you have to take any opportunity to catch him that you have.

At the moment I lean village on zakalwe and maintain null on novice. But right now I think there are plenty better targets. I'm trying to keep an open mind on scooter though I think his tone has become more exasperated wolf as the pressure has mounted. This I recognize since its the tone I've most often seen from him. But with no mechanism for ending days early I also don't want to see 72 hours of a dogpile on him.

I'd particularly like to ask Ichabod why he finds himself agreeing with scooter so much this game, but I know I'm 12 hours or more from getting any answers from him. The Euro's don't especially interest me at this point in time but I'll place a vote on Catwalk because I do still find him a bit curious this time around.

Well, I think people are reading tones in my messages that I didn't want them to have. I was just asking a question, not making direct accusations of a wolf block. But since the three of you voted pretty similar to each other on day 1, it reminded me a bit of my own game as a wolf in WW7, when we were constantly debating and derailing the thread to where we eanted it to be.

I don't remember ever getting such "this seem like a wolf question" in the previous games, where I also asked direct questions to each one of you. And both of you said the same thing. I can't see how my question is odd and I don't know why I shouldn't put in evidence that you voted as a block and ask why was that. I found some of the reasoning behind the votes pretty weak and I wouldn't have expected each of you to follow them so promptly.

Now talking specifically about Gaspar, his tone of trying to throw suspicions at me is in almost every message. Again, why was the question odd? I don't find it odd to deserve such a recognition.

And where am I agreeing with scooter so much? I said I didn't find him suspicious enough to cast a vote, because I don't see the connection between his play here and in WW7, where I watched him play. As far as I can tell, that was the only argument against him. And just because I didn't agree with an argument against scooter, now I'm constantly agreeing with him? It seems the kind of crafty argument from a wolf, the same type I used in WW7. It's easy to stick in the mind of the other palyers and it's pretty forgeable. But it's untrue.

And, yes, I agreed with scooter in my comment above, but that was after your comment...

You seem to be doing with me the same we did with zakalwe in WW7. Throw a suspicious here and there, make some similingly good argument here and there and than waiting for the villagers to jump at him on their own, never being the starter of the bandwagon.

So, I vote Gaspar.

I still find the early abundance of fluff from novice suspicious.

I don't think novice can be considered a fluffless player for what his doing in this game to seem strange. I think he's one of the players that post the most fluff posts (like "worst baner ever", for example).

slowcheetah is a far better example of how a new scum typically plays in these games than Tasunke. Tasunke resembles your first game more than plings.

slowcheetah game remember me of Gustaran, a bit, albeit Gustaran was way, way more agressive.

[Ichabod]

Just to reiterate (may as well since there isn't much else to comment on currently), he wasn't irrelevant to my decision. I commented on MJW since Scooter's innocent read on MJW was another indication to me that Scooter might be faking his reads.

I am not impressed with how you've parked your vote on me after I have refuted your arguments. You said you wanted "my take on" something, I provided it, and you then said you "don't buy my explanation", so your neutral request for information has suddenly evolved into a concrete suspicion. You also wanted Selrahc's take, so why not move your vote to him, to provoke a response from him, too? Perhaps you had already decided to park your vote in a "safe" place on me, and just viewed my prompt answer to your question as an inconvenient annoyance?

That's a very good argument. It's not only a "safe" place, but it's also something perceived as uncommon for a wolf to do.

[Tasunke]

If one assumes scooter is a wolf, then he could just be attaching onto me to seem more villagerish once I get hanged, and everyone sees that I am civilized. Just throwing that out there.

However, I am personally more suspicious of Selrahc.

and no one is voting MJW so ...

[scooter]

I have reread a bit, and I'm slightly tempted to do the same, especially considering how Scooter isn't voting for his top suspect.

*squints sternly at Scooter AND Selrahc*

I explained why I hadn't voted Selrahc yet - wanted to pressure slowcheetah. But if you guys are interested in voting Selrach, I'm in! Selrahc

My switch to MJW happened 12 minuteds before the deadline not 2. Enough time for latst minute BW and votejumping. So are you those 2 minutes a honest mistake or just another fiction to paint me black?

I know I left with exactly :50 minutes on the clock (so 10 to go) and unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the switch came sometime after that. I certainly don't remember it until reading about it after. I believe you now when you say it was more than 2 minutes, but for me, the last 10 minutes wasn't read until much later and it was a mess, so keeping it all straight is difficult.

You see He who believes he might die does not vote for the leader (Tasunke) but votes for Jkaen. Making it a 5/5/4 instead of a 4/6/4. Isn't that strange?

Dude I had no idea what the vote tally was at the time because half of the tallies posted were way wrong. Go back and check - Uberfish and Sareln were posting tallies with about 30% accuracy so I didn't trust any of them. All I knew was I (at the time) believed Tasunke was innocent and believed Jkaen was a better shot at wolf. I also believed Jkaen was ahead of Tasunke when I wrote that anyways, and I have no idea if that was true or not.

But even more strange he was completly right. The next votes are cyneheard switching from Tasunke to Jkaen and Tasunke himself sealing the deal. Good advanced knowledge scooter you should work as an oracle

FYI, I may be an inexperienced villager, but I know how to play wolf. I would never make such a sloppy mistake as a wolf, and anyone who's played with me would attest to that. You're basically implying myself, Cyneheard, and Tasunke are wolves who coordinated to save... me? That would be the highest wolf play possible. Cmon, give my wolf persona a little more credit here.

[scooter]

I explained why I hadn't voted Selrahc yet - wanted to pressure slowcheetah. But if you guys are interested in voting Selrach, I'm in! Selrahc

FYI I'd be down with voting Gaspar too. His actions are just screaming wolf to me - it's like he's picking an "easy suspect target" and then coming up with reasons why they seem wolfish rather than looking for suspicious activity and calling people out on it. There's a subtle difference, but one is what a wolf does, and the other is what a villager does. Especially because Gaspar is usually quite good at reading people and his observations just seem a little too "duh" for him.

[Catwalk]

Just to reiterate (may as well since there isn't much else to comment on currently), he wasn't irrelevant to my decision. I commented on MJW since Scooter's innocent read on MJW was another indication to me that Scooter might be faking his reads.

I am not impressed with how you've parked your vote on me after I have refuted your arguments. You said you wanted "my take on" something, I provided it, and you then said you "don't buy my explanation", so your neutral request for information has suddenly evolved into a concrete suspicion. You also wanted Selrahc's take, so why not move your vote to him, to provoke a response from him, too? Perhaps you had already decided to park your vote in a "safe" place on me, and just viewed my prompt answer to your question as an inconvenient annoyance?

For the record, I was at school working on a group project and hopped on to type from time to time. I do accept your explanation, and did not intend to park my vote. I think you know better than to assume I'd consider you a safe vote parking lot, though. I think my suspicion matches my posts from yesterday expressing frustration at the events leading up to the lynch. I will unvote for now, will have time to read and comment later tonight. Selrahc, I'd be interested in your take on why the vote remained heavily split leading up to the lynch.

[Gaspar]

I suppose there's been enough of my name in red/suggested to be in red in the future that I can explain myself a little bit better. I'll even keep my cool, promise!

Well, I think people are reading tones in my messages that I didn't want them to have. I was just asking a question, not making direct accusations of a wolf block. But since the three of you voted pretty similar to each other on day 1, it reminded me a bit of my own game as a wolf in WW7, when we were constantly debating and derailing the thread to where we eanted it to be.

I don't think there's much in my play that's similar to WW7. Primarily because my posts have been much more direct. But even more than that, I don't actually think you'll find a lot of spots where say you, Roland and myself are agreeing directly. We were pretty cautious about that.

I don't remember ever getting such "this seem like a wolf question" in the previous games, where I also asked direct questions to each one of you. And both of you said the same thing. I can't see how my question is odd and I don't know why I shouldn't put in evidence that you voted as a block and ask why was that. I found some of the reasoning behind the votes pretty weak and I wouldn't have expected each of you to follow them so promptly.

The part that seemed wolfy was the trying to draw a connection where none exists. While I'll accept zakalwe, novice and myself are to some extent linked in these games based on the sheer volume of times that we end up each others foremost accusers I think the only thing we had in common on day 1 was ending up on the same place. I generally dislike connection theories before we have a confirmed scum, as I often state when trying to discourage newbies from doing so - it leads to an unproductive confirmation bias. That an experienced player such as yourself was drawing it - well that sounds suspicious.

That's one of the things that I've learned from playing more of the game. You can't get all over people for bad reads - we all make them. But a bad process can be indicative of scum trying to derail. Am I saying I think you're scum because of this? Not really. I'm saying its questionable.

Now talking specifically about Gaspar, his tone of trying to throw suspicions at me is in almost every message. Again, why was the question odd? I don't find it odd to deserve such a recognition.

See above.

And where am I agreeing with scooter so much? I said I didn't find him suspicious enough to cast a vote, because I don't see the connection between his play here and in WW7, where I watched him play. As far as I can tell, that was the only argument against him. And just because I didn't agree with an argument against scooter, now I'm constantly agreeing with him? It seems the kind of crafty argument from a wolf, the same type I used in WW7. It's easy to stick in the mind of the other palyers and it's pretty forgeable. But it's untrue.

I feel like you're agreeing with him a lot. Perhaps its my own confirmation bias since the two of you have fingered me quite a bit. I'll look through the thread when I get out of work tonight and reassess.

And, yes, I agreed with scooter in my comment above, but that was after your comment...

You seem to be doing with me the same we did with zakalwe in WW7. Throw a suspicious here and there, make some similingly good argument here and there and than waiting for the villagers to jump at him on their own, never being the starter of the bandwagon.

So, I vote Gaspar.

This is just your own getting annoyed because I accused you. I did start the earlier bandwagon you. I started the bandwagon on scooter (with zakalwe's help.) Hell, I helped get the bandwagon on Jkaen going. I never shy from being first vote on someone and I haven't at all shied in this game from leading the caravan. So that's a pretty false accusation. Whether that's because you're misreading or intentionally deceiving, I don't know.

That's really where I'm at with you Ichabod. I find you slightly off this game. Maybe that's because usually we agree a lot and this game we haven't. Maybe its because we've at least insinuated one another's guilt often. Or maybe its because you're part of the NAP. I don't know, but I'm not going to back off trying to find out because you're putting a vote on me.

[quote=Ichabod]slowcheetah game remember me of Gustaran, a bit, albeit Gustaran was way, way more agressive.

Not entirely, but I see the connection. I actually think many of the European first time wolves have played the same - stay quiet, lots of excuses, little to no observational content. Gustaran and Molach leap immediately to mind.

FYI I'd be down with voting Gaspar too. His actions are just screaming wolf to me - it's like he's picking an "easy suspect target" and then coming up with reasons why they seem wolfish rather than looking for suspicious activity and calling people out on it. There's a subtle difference, but one is what a wolf does, and the other is what a villager does. Especially because Gaspar is usually quite good at reading people and his observations just seem a little too "duh" for him.

I don't think this is true either. I don't think you're an easy target in general. And if that were the case, would have been very easy to just stick with Jkaen or Tasunke or for that matter MJW. All much easier targets than you.

scooter, if you think my observations are poor could you point out an example of an observation you think is poor that I made that didn't involve you? I guess I'd like to ask Ichabod the same thing. What's prompting you to vote me other than the fact that I've been suspicious of you? What other peculiar behavior have I exhibited? I guess if I must defend, I'd much rather defend something other than what I'm sure you'll both agree are quite often just personal reactions to suspicions being placed on you.