The Haunted Forest: Mardoc puts the Sidar to the test.

[Thoth]

See Mardoc?

You're outvoted....now just sign, and tech to Infernal Pact.

[Selrahc]

/opinions
As a former player, I'd probably have been against both. Hyborem/Ally is by far the more exploitative though. When Hyborem has an ally he can farm manes easily, becoming unbelievably strong. If I'd been allowed to hand the Lanun in FFH6 over to an ally, then my Hyborem would be rocking size 70 cities everywhere. It's just game breaking.

If you *are* going to do it, don't do stuff like that.

And ask Bob first. You guys may have given him a stupid deal, but he'll now be working towards Basium on the back of it. You can't then turn around and change the terms unilaterally.

[Thoth]

Who says Hyborem will be an ally?

Mardoc has yet to sign. :soc:

[Mardoc]

Mardoc has yet to sign.

I just don't see what's in it for me. Sorry, Thoth.

It's too late for Hyborem to be significant without cheese. I'd rather win this aboveboard.

[Mardoc]

I'm not sure on this one...

I'd really like some more build queues, but we need troops at home to deal with the barbs and any cities we do capture are going to be expensive.

Troops at home I have covered. I'll be leaving any Rangers who aren't healed enough, plus the two that went chasing Serdoa's last horse, at home. Plus we've got one last DS upgraded, plus whatever Pacman knocks out in the next few turns.

Plus I'll leave the Baron. I'm not risking him in anything but gimme fights until we've got a solid core of werewolves - but the vast majority of barbs are gimme fights. And we've already got two Ravenous werewolves with easy targets in sight, if they'll go ahead and attack already; leaving a couple Str 8 Blooded werewolves and whatever new wolves are born from both them and the Baron, I think our homelands should be fine from anything but Serdoa himself - and I think he'll shortly have too much to worry about to consider an expeditionary force.

Costs - well, yes. This is rather uncertain, as well. Although I'll point out here that Serdoa's got gold, and incense, and a lot of riverside tiles, and Kilmorph already spread, so the cities will come with a good deal of income to go with their costs.

I think I'm going to go for it. I think the extra hammers and build queues are just that valuable to us - especially as Sidar, with our current civics. We can easily turn hammers into gold with the aid of the barbs, but we can't do much in reverse. The easiest way to justify a Wane factory in my mind is if it's in a city we don't currently own .

Those hammers could be run through the Heroic Epic instead....

And the beakers for Math could be spent elsewhere.

Yes, ok. I'll delay, and maybe we can end the game before I get around to it. If the situation changes, then we might change our goals as well, but for now Bazaar is a back-burner idea.

Which means Arete next, to put Bambur on the board for the moment .

Chalid's a bit gimped....but Rathas/Radiant Guards are still very good. Plus even gimped Chalid is still ok.

And Luridus (Empy high priests) are also very good.

[Tasunke]

As a former player, I'd probably have been against both. Hyborem/Ally is by far the more exploitative though. When Hyborem has an ally he can farm manes easily, becoming unbelievably strong. If I'd been allowed to hand the Lanun in FFH6 over to an ally, then my Hyborem would be rocking size 70 cities everywhere.

That would have only been possible over the course of a very long game.

In my RP games experience, summoning one ally is no more broken than summoning the other.

Yes Hyborem has a technological advantage in some respects due to manes, but he also cannot grow his own population so he isn't a part of the food/expansion wars.

Hyborem's best play is to spam 3 pop cities while spreading what little manes he gets into one or two cities.

To get a TON of manes, only one AV ally is not going to do it. You need CITY RAZING, you need MULTIPLE CIVS with living evil units. Normally Hyborem cheese only happens in SP.

Hyborem can also be broken (even in MP) if someone goes armageddon happy while another switches to Hyborem. The Hyborem player will usually have the advantage, as they are hit with 0 of the Armageddon effects.

Meanwhile the Mercurians have ENOURMOUS military advantages.

Aggressive/Raiders

(both have free Iron)

metal using recon units (Angels of Death and Heralds)

Angels of Death, with their invisibility, their iron weapons, their angelic race, and their -1 pop per attack ... is the ULTIMATE counter to Hyborem.

Lucky angels of death can reduce Hyborem city population faster than Hyborem can typically grow it.

Also, disciple exp from Altars can ensure that Basium has a ready supply of T4 angel units, Aggressive, RAIDER T4 angel units.

[Tasunke]

It's too late for Hyborem to be significant without cheese.

This is probably true ...

He would only be able to get (significant) manes in this game if you lost an army or two worth of Veil units.

[Commodore]

So any chance of getting an overall world map? This is all quite dim and murky as to where everyone is and who has what.

[Mardoc]

So any chance of getting an overall world map? This is all quite dim and murky as to where everyone is and who has what.

Not soon!

Or at least not from me. Bob may know the world better, especially since I gave him my map for his champions.

My map still has Vampire culture on it. I've been focused inward ever since the first Hippus war began. I still have yet to find an elvish city. My best and only hints come from the diplo window, merely counting up city #'s. Sometime soonish (probably once Serdoa's dead) I will send out Rangers with Hawks to map the world, but right now I don't know what it looks like either.

[Selrahc]

To get a TON of manes, only one AV ally is not going to do it.

It's pretty easy to trick out a city to spit out a Savant every turn. If Bob were to be the one with a Hyborem ally, he would probably be able to task 3 or more cities to the task. 20 turns later, and Hyborem has 3 size 23 mega metropolises.

If it was allowed earlier from a rush, with a good 50turns to do things? Hyborem could be on size 70 cities, 1 turning end game techs with specialists.

You're essentially arguing that it is "fair" because Mardoc is in a bad position to cheese out on mane production. I don't think that is a compelling argument.