Learning Capria FFH SG

[kjn]

Some micro notes:

We can do some tile-swapping between Salamanca, Paris, and Bologna:

Bologna can take one of the shared cottages from Paris (firing its merchant), Paris can take one of the cottages shared with Salamanca, and Salamanca can either work coast or hire a priest (finishing the Temple of the Order this turn).

I forgot to send the Priest of Leaves towards the deer 3N of Bologna in the savegame. He can reach it on turn 271 and cast Bloom.

You should make a road to the mana node close to Coimbra, so we can connect it quickly once we get adepts.

If you plan to switch to Empyrean, then you can skip the monument in Tartu. It will expand borders using religion.

[kjn]

The Bannor empire: An economic analysis

Currently, the Bannor economy is by far the largest in the game, and it is still expanding.

Every notch on the research-gold slider is currently worth 60 gold. This is in Consumption, which gives +20% gold, so the net in normal civics is 50 gold.

A look at the financial advisor gives some interesting information:

In Military State, our army doesn't cost anything, ie the primary benefit of this military civic is economic. But note the cost for inflation! It is up to 51% now, and it's our single largest cost. This means that St Andrews (our most expensive city), which shows 8.86 gold in cost, in reality costs 13.38 gold per turn.

Doing the math on a courthouse in St Andrews, it would save us 5.63 gold per turn! Ie, at this stage in our development courthouses are much more efficient than markets (which give us around 2.2 gold in adjusted income).

Nominal cost: 2.33 + 7.00 = 9.33
Total cost after inflation: 9.33 * 1.51 = 14.09
Savings from courthouse: 14.09 * 0.4 = 5.63

Getting the Code of Junil will be a huge economic boost. The gold generated will be small compared to the size of our economy (currently 6 gold), but 5% maintenance savings from law mana is huge. 18 cities, which cost on average 8 gold per turn before maintenance reductions, means a total of 144 gold, and adjusted for inflation it means the 5% will be calculated on 216 gold per turn. Ie, the Code of Junil will save us at least 10 gold per turn, or the equivalent of two courthouses!

Can we afford a switch out of Aristorcracy? Currently, we have 36 farms, so leaving Aristocracy for Theocracy would increase costs with 10 gpt (after inflation). Distance maintenance would go up, probably with another 10 gpt. On the other hand, the increased food surplus could hire up to 18 merchants, more than making up for this loss.

Of course, we would lose 70 commerce per turn too, so Aristocracy is currently worth about 15% on our slider.

[Brian Shanahan]

In Military State, our army doesn't cost anything, ie the primary benefit of this military civic is economic. But note the cost for inflation! It is up to 51% now, and it's our single largest cost. This means that St Andrews (our most expensive city), which shows 8.86 gold in cost, in reality costs 13.38 gold per turn.

Doing the math on a courthouse in St Andrews, it would save us 5.63 gold per turn! Ie, at this stage in our development courthouses are much more efficient than markets (which give us around 2.2 gold in adjusted income).

I knew there was something I was forgetting! That's why I always pay the gold in the mad advisor (painting the cows) event for the -10% inflation. Even if it is only linear it helps.

I'm guessing the economic plan is:
1) Build courthouses!
2) Get a Prophet!
3) Spread Order!
4) Stay in Aristo!
5) Up the science!

[kjn]

I'm guessing the economic plan is:
1) Build courthouses!
2) Get a Prophet!
3) Spread Order!
4) Stay in Aristo!
5) Up the science!

Yeah, unless you want to get high-XP units by adopting Theocracy: Conquest + Theocracy means you can draft 2 XP units - and M2 Radiant Guards are excellent units, especially if you can draft them. Spreading Empyrean also helps some. (+10% science in our high-commerce cities is nothing to sneeze at.)

And we can afford to switch out of Aristocracy, at least as long as we stay in Military state. We'd have to lower science with 10% (or run a couple of merchants), but we could make it up with sages. Being able to switch to a civic like Conquest or Trade would be nice, and then we could run a combined cottage-specialist economy.

[kjn]

One more thing on the economy: right now we've hit the point where each new city increase cost with a fixed amount. Number of cities maintenance is capped to 7 gpt plus inflation, so in effect a new city will only cost 12 gpt or so (7 for number of cities, 3 for distance, 5 for inflation, and reduce it with 3 for the commerce it generates).

So if we settle all the planned cities rapidly, it'd only mean a slider reduction of 10% to handle the increased costs.

[Brian Shanahan]

I'll have a look at the save later tonight. Busy, busy, busy.

I'll play tomorrow, but I think we've our options fairly well laid out. The main decision is, do we want to go to war (properly) soon, or keep teching up the tree a bit more?

[kjn]

If we go after Auric, I'm not sure we need that much more tech. Distances are short, and he has mostly one-movers. We might even use the Sirian doctrine, and ferry troops, but that'd probably need too much investment in the navy.

Against Jonas, however, we are going to need lots and lots of troops, ie demagogs. Those requires Fanaticism and Iron Working, so we want those two and Smelting. Horse Archers gives us a strong fast unit, and Taxation will make sure our economy doesn't crash too badly when we pull our world spell or switch out of Aristograrianism (we have too much pop for running aristocracy without agrarianism).

Alteration would also be very nice - Body 1 and Enchantment 1 are excellent unit boosters. Hmmm... that comes to quite a bit of tech. But we can do a lot of it while doing the preparatory work, getting unit-enablers in, draft Radiant Guards, archers and axemen (in that order of priority), and spreading Order and Empyrean.

The main decision however is if we are to go Empyrean -> Order or the other way around?

Pros Empyrean:

Chalid
Luridus (high priests) are good anti-stack units
Radiant Guards are good draftable units

Cons Empyrean:

Radiant Guards are more support than mainline units
Vicars are the worst priest unit
Bonus to research

Pros Order:

Confessors are the best stack-boosting priest unit, but need numbers
Spreads quickly (ie good culture source)
Basilicas (expensive courthouse replacement in Crusade)
Crusaders
Bonus to military unit building

Cons Order:

Heros are OK but not spectacular
High Priests are meh

Ie, for a protracted campaign, I think Order+Crusade will be superior since we have access to courthouse replacements. On the other hand, Chalid is the best stack buster.

[haphazard1]

The Bannor empire: An economic analysis

Currently, the Bannor economy is by far the largest in the game, and it is still expanding.

We are the largest, but by land our advantage is not by much. We are strongly ahead in population.

A look at the financial advisor gives some interesting information:

In Military State, our army doesn't cost anything, ie the primary benefit of this military civic is economic. But note the cost for inflation! It is up to 51% now, and it's our single largest cost. This means that St Andrews (our most expensive city), which shows 8.86 gold in cost, in reality costs 13.38 gold per turn.

Doing the math on a courthouse in St Andrews, it would save us 5.63 gold per turn! Ie, at this stage in our development courthouses are much more efficient than markets (which give us around 2.2 gold in adjusted income).

This is true in St Andrews, but as noted it is our most expensive city. Markets may still be useful in some cities, especially since they cost half the hammers of a courthouse so the savings per hammer can be competitive. This can be calculated per city and decisions made for each case. Inflation will continue to increase, however, so courthouses are becoming more advantageous over time.

Can we afford a switch out of Aristorcracy? Currently, we have 36 farms, so leaving Aristocracy for Theocracy would increase costs with 10 gpt (after inflation). Distance maintenance would go up, probably with another 10 gpt. On the other hand, the increased food surplus could hire up to 18 merchants, more than making up for this loss.

Of course, we would lose 70 commerce per turn too, so Aristocracy is currently worth about 15% on our slider.

This assumes that we would keep Agrarianism, or rather that moving out of Agrarianism would cost us those 18 merchants. Adopting Conquest will be very expensive. Given that it gives us more XP per unit and allows practical unit construction in food-rich, hammer-poor cities, we may need to think about our wartime civics.

One more thing on the economy: right now we've hit the point where each new city increase cost with a fixed amount. Number of cities maintenance is capped to 7 gpt plus inflation, so in effect a new city will only cost 12 gpt or so (7 for number of cities, 3 for distance, 5 for inflation, and reduce it with 3 for the commerce it generates).

So if we settle all the planned cities rapidly, it'd only mean a slider reduction of 10% to handle the increased costs.

Ah, I had not thought to check this. But if we have hit the plateau on city costs, we should definitely make an effort to grab the additional city sites rapidly.

If we go after Auric, I'm not sure we need that much more tech. Distances are short, and he has mostly one-movers. We might even use the Sirian doctrine, and ferry troops, but that'd probably need too much investment in the navy.

Agreed. Our current tech is enough to finish Auric, we just need more volume of troops.

Against Jonas, however, we are going to need lots and lots of troops, ie demagogs. Those requires Fanaticism and Iron Working, so we want those two and Smelting. Horse Archers gives us a strong fast unit, and Taxation will make sure our economy doesn't crash too badly when we pull our world spell or switch out of Aristograrianism (we have too much pop for running aristocracy without agrarianism).

Against Jonas we will need more -- many more! -- troops. But we will also need better troops. We also have to have some form of stack busting, and preferably some siege to deal with city defenses as well. If we have plenty of stack busters then siege needed is minimal, but it would still be handy to have some to cut down core city defensive bonuses.

Alteration would also be very nice - Body 1 and Enchantment 1 are excellent unit boosters. Hmmm... that comes to quite a bit of tech. But we can do a lot of it while doing the preparatory work, getting unit-enablers in, draft Radiant Guards, archers and axemen (in that order of priority), and spreading Order and Empyrean.

Agree on Alteration. And yes, this means we still have quite a ways to go on tech. Which may mean Jonas has enough time to get to Sorcery, assuming he has not already done so.

The main decision however is if we are to go Empyrean -> Order or the other way around?

Pros Empyrean:

Chalid
Luridus (high priests) are good anti-stack units
Radiant Guards are good draftable units

Cons Empyrean:

Radiant Guards are more support than mainline units
Vicars are the worst priest unit
Bonus to research

Are we really concerned about high priests? That is one more quite expensive tech added to our list.

I don't understand the "Bonus to research" under cons. Is this a con because we don't get one? Newb-ness here, please explain a bit more.

Pros Order:

Confessors are the best stack-boosting priest unit, but need numbers
Spreads quickly (ie good culture source)
Basilicas (expensive courthouse replacement in Crusade)
Crusaders
Bonus to military unit building

Cons Order:

Heros are OK but not spectacular
High Priests are meh

Again, not sure high priests being meh is a factor if we don't plan to tech Theology. And how are basilicas connected to Crusade? From the pedia entry, they require the religion but nothing else. And they should be additive with a courthouse rather than being a replacement, so we can chop city costs tremendously. A bit expensive in hammers, but not horribly so.

Ie, for a protracted campaign, I think Order+Crusade will be superior since we have access to courthouse replacements. On the other hand, Chalid is the best stack buster.

We need some kind of stack busting. If we want Order + Crusade (which is a big part of what being the Bannor is all about, seemingly) then we have to get that somewhere. Otherwise I think we would have little choice but to go with Chalid.

[kjn]

We are the largest, but by land our advantage is not by much. We are strongly ahead in population.

Exactly. We both have land to expand into, but our land is close to max utilisation right now, and the cities we can build will all go on decent land.

This is true in St Andrews, but as noted it is our most expensive city. Markets may still be useful in some cities, especially since they cost half the hammers of a courthouse so the savings per hammer can be competitive. This can be calculated per city and decisions made for each case. Inflation will continue to increase, however, so courthouses are becoming more advantageous over time.

Yes, but every other new city we will settle will be farther away compared to St Andrews. And most of our cities will grow very quickly, or start at a decent size (if conquered).

Markets have one key benefit though: the merchant slot. But that one only comes into play later on, and we can get it via a ToK as well.

This assumes that we would keep Agrarianism, or rather that moving out of Agrarianism would cost us those 18 merchants. Adopting Conquest will be very expensive. Given that it gives us more XP per unit and allows practical unit construction in food-rich, hammer-poor cities, we may need to think about our wartime civics.

I think that if we go wartime civics, they should be all-out: Theocracy+Conquest+Military State, and later Crusade. And we can have as many demagogs as we want, since they don't cost maintenance.

Against Jonas we will need more -- many more! -- troops. But we will also need better troops. We also have to have some form of stack busting, and preferably some siege to deal with city defenses as well. If we have plenty of stack busters then siege needed is minimal, but it would still be handy to have some to cut down core city defensive bonuses.

Well, demagogs are plenty good stack busters themselves - you can always have more of them!

We can also use combined arms to handle large stacks. Immobilise them with Radiant Guards or Rathas, giving time for catapults to approach the stack and collateral it, then a mass assault with demagogs. Not something the AI can do, but very possible for us.

Agree on Alteration. And yes, this means we still have quite a ways to go on tech. Which may mean Jonas has enough time to get to Sorcery, assuming he has not already done so.

Alteration is a 2-turn research right now. It's the other techs that are expensive.

Are we really concerned about high priests? That is one more quite expensive tech added to our list.

Quite so. Mostly there for completeness.

I don't understand the "Bonus to research" under cons. Is this a con because we don't get one? Newb-ness here, please explain a bit more.

Me adding stuff under the wrong header.

Again, not sure high priests being meh is a factor if we don't plan to tech Theology. And how are basilicas connected to Crusade? From the pedia entry, they require the religion but nothing else. And they should be additive with a courthouse rather than being a replacement, so we can chop city costs tremendously. A bit expensive in hammers, but not horribly so.

If we go Crusade, then most economy builds are blocked out: we can't build settlers, workers, work boats, markets, granaries, courthouses, or many other buildings. But we can build temples and Basilicas.

[haphazard1]

Exactly. We both have land to expand into, but our land is close to max utilisation right now, and the cities we can build will all go on decent land.

Mostly decent land, anyway. Stupid unimprovable marsh.

Yes, but every other new city we will settle will be farther away compared to St Andrews. And most of our cities will grow very quickly, or start at a decent size (if conquered).

I am not sure the farther away will be true -- we have the secondary palace in Praha. Conquered cities will almost certainly be farther away, except for Evermore and Hyll.

Markets have one key benefit though: the merchant slot. But that one only comes into play later on, and we can get it via a ToK as well.

Markets are half the hammer cost of courthouses, so on a per-hammer basis they may still be competitive in some cities. It is worth it to check each city before deciding.

I think that if we go wartime civics, they should be all-out: Theocracy+Conquest+Military State, and later Crusade. And we can have as many demagogs as we want, since they don't cost maintenance.

I agree. The loss of commerce from Aristocracy and food from Agrarianism will be painful. (Switching out of both at once is food neutral, of course, but we will face the full commerce loss from Aristocracy without anything to offset it.) But once we shift to war mode, we should go all out.

The question is when do we make that shift? We do still have several techs we want first, plus grabbing the rest of our available city sites. So I think we stay in our current civics for at least one more turnset, and maybe two more. This will delay serious progress against Auric, plus leaving us weaker than I am really happy with. But I just don't think we are ready to go all-out war mode yet.

Well, demagogs are plenty good stack busters themselves - you can always have more of them!

We can also use combined arms to handle large stacks. Immobilise them with Radiant Guards or Rathas, giving time for catapults to approach the stack and collateral it, then a mass assault with demagogs. Not something the AI can do, but very possible for us.

Demagogs will provide a major part of our strength. But I was thinking of something more efficient than pure attritional tactics for stack busting. Chalid would be awesome, but we probably want Order instead. Sorcery for Maelstrom and Fireball seems unlikely, and we wouldn't have much in the way of developed adepts any time soon.

Do we actually have any siege workshops built, much less catapults? Siege is slow, even in our own lands using roads. On the attack in foreign culture getting them where we need them will be horribly slow. And against Jonas and his stacks of Haste shamans...not good.

Some Ice I adepts to slow our enemies, in addition to Radiant Guards or Rathas, will certainly help. But something with some stack effect or area effect damage would certainly be useful. I have gotten spoiled with my (whole two ) personal games having the edge in arcane units.

Alteration is a 2-turn research right now. It's the other techs that are expensive.

Alteration is pretty cheap. But we also need to build some adepts and actually get nodes set up. I haven't actually checked to see just how many raw nodes we have available. Maybe we can double up on Body and get Haste for free on most of our adepts? It would be nice to be able to spend one promotion on Mobility, and another on Ice. Enchanted Blade for at least a couple adepts, plus some Air promotions if we think we will ever get to Sorcery for Maelstrom.

If we go Crusade, then most economy builds are blocked out: we can't build settlers, workers, work boats, markets, granaries, courthouses, or many other buildings. But we can build temples and Basilicas.

Ah, OK. Noob learns something once again. This makes more sense with why Crusade gets referred to as a "trap" civic, along with the demagogs.