WW11 - Civilization

[MJW (ya that one)]

I had a job interview today so that is why I have not been posting. If you want anything from me just ask.

My only real question is what is this 'lovefest' Selrahc speaks of? Also responeding to the post above I do have lots of ideas.

Mardoc: I like Sareln's post about you. I think you wanting to lynch me for being 'the center of attention' is bad. What you meant to say that you have to chose between me and Selrahc. Well if I die today then you have to push Selrahc tomorrow. Why is is weak idea? Because everyone on your list would not be effected other than Selrahc. Tasunke is very likely not guilty due to the metagame issue of him blowing his power too soon. Gaspar would not get lynched over my death. If you want to kill him you would have to use other way. Lewwyn not guilty—to angry. Besides he is unsure of me and has not addressed me or talked to me directly. Weak connection between me and him.

I could see myself voting for SlowCheetah. He has not done much. Speaking about you I like my thoughts otherwise I would not post them and post something else. They may be random to you but others can understand what I'm saying in general, like Zak.

The reason that I roleclaimed is that my role sucks hard. It is very hard to trigger as Jkaen tends to stick around for a long time in these games. I would also have to live a long time and get targeted by the wolfs which is very hard as I am a good lynch target. There is a chance that it would take us from an odd number of players to an even number of players which is bad. I also thought that Jkaen had a different power then mine so he would know if killing me would be worth it if he was a villager. So roleclaiming and getting that metashield was the strongest play IMO. Everyone should try to refute my metashield rather than ignore it.

Selrahc: Although this has not been my best game others are still good targets and do not have my meta-shield so it makes sense to go after them first. I was planning to roleclaim without even reading the thread as it sucked so hard and had the chance of causing an 'elf feud'. Why would I suddenly say “I think there is a vig?” If I was not planning to role-claim? It's too dumb even for me for it to be a plausible mistake. I'll go over your 2 points:

1. There is too many power-roles for there to be anymore. So catwalk would have to be a vig if we have one. I think that is unlikely though as I think he would have blown his power by now and I think he would suspect me. If scooter is the only vig my role sucks so hard if I'm a wolf that uberfish would never make it. First Jkaen has to die, and he is very likely to be protected during the night, then the wolfs have to blunder in-into nightkilling scooter. Then scooter has to target me. All in this order—very unlikely. Yay!

2. As I've said before my role sucks. I would rather have the meta-shield.

[Sareln]

Apparently I'm a stupid git who doesn't know anything with criticism coming in from across the spectrum of suspicion personal suspicion(Gaspar, Lewwyn, Selrahc) and the person I think/thought a wolf is doing his best "who, me?" cute-little bunny impression (Mardoc).

I need to step back and re-evaluate. I also have to throw a dinner party tonight, so that re-evaluation won't be coming up until at least 0200 local (T-minus 13 hours to lynch).

[Selrahc]

My only real question is what is this 'lovefest' Selrahc speaks of?

1201-1218. Particularly interesting...

I also think that one of the reasons so many people have felt innocent to me is that in fact the ones talking ARE innocent...

I actually hate when people do what I'm about to do but I have a few moments and suddenly feel compelled by this brief burst of agreeing with Rowain to try and add to the discussion.

I don't know. Maybe I built it in my head a little. Rereading it it doesn't seem like such a circle jerk. But it stunk of alliance building, which is something that I deeply distrust villagers doing, since I've seen too many games lost by a "Trusted Villager". We've seen them in RB. I've seen them in my own play. I just really distrust this kind of alliance building, game controlling play.

Am I just nuts? Does nobody else see that particular segment of the thread in that light?

[slowcheetah]

I could see myself voting for SlowCheetah. He has not done much. Speaking about you I like my thoughts otherwise I would not post them and post something else. They may be random to you but others can understand what I'm saying in general, like Zak.
.

Yes, reading my post back that was actually quite rude of me. I apologise.

As for refuting your metashield, your main argument seems to be that you don't believe there to be a vig in the game so it would be a crap power for a wolf.

1) This is based on scooter being the only one because there are too many power roles. So far we've had.

Zakalwe- tracker
Jkaen-Reverse of yours
scooter- Revenge vig
Selrahc- Stop someone voting for a day
Ichabod-Mason
Novice- Mason
Rowain-Ability tracker
Catwalk- A mysterious and reputedly powerful ability.
Meiz- Was something crap which I can't quite remember

Yell if i've missed anyone

From that list the only two powers which seem particularly powerful are Zak's and possibly Catwalks. That suggests a) there is room for another vigilante, b) that your power wouldn't be that bad for a wolf relative to some of the other powers. Selrahc's vote stop or Rowain's ability tracker or Meiz's, seemed very situational; as your power would be.

[Mardoc]

What you meant to say that you have to chose between me and Selrahc.

No, I don't. I could choose to ignore the discussion entirely. There's enough other people who are suspicious, I could have found a third party target.

The reason that I roleclaimed is that my role sucks hard. It is very hard to trigger as Jkaen tends to stick around for a long time in these games. I would also have to live a long time and get targeted by the wolfs which is very hard as I am a good lynch target. There is a chance that it would take us from an odd number of players to an even number of players which is bad. I also thought that Jkaen had a different power then mine so he would know if killing me would be worth it if he was a villager. So roleclaiming and getting that metashield was the strongest play IMO. Everyone should try to refute my metashield rather than ignore it.

What the heck? If you're a villager, your role is awesome. A lost kill on a villager is always good. Doubly good if you can prove it was the wolves who tried to kill you, then you're proved innocent. There's a reason why Baner and even Bodyguard have been regarded as overpowered roles here in the past. You say that odds of Jkaen dying are low - but it's a rare game where even half the village survives. And...if you're a villager, you shouldn't really care about dying, you should care about finding and thwarting wolves.

If you were aiming for village victory, there is literally no reason to let the wolves know they can be thwarted.

Unless...unless you claim your ability. In which case you have a perfect excuse not to be attacked at night - but it can never do any good. Never prove you innocent, never prove Jkaen innocent. Just be a reason why you survive every night. .

Y'know - after that little rant, I'm comfortable leaving my vote on you. Either you're a wolf, or you're a villager who's worthless, threw away his ability, and got Jkaen lynched for nothing. And more than that, you've demonstrated now and in the past that you think about the mechanics and roles in great detail. Heck, I remember the Seer game you had - you found three of the wolves, yourself. And then failed to persuade the village, nearly, but that's beside my point.

So this isn't just a mistake. You might not be good at persuasion, but you wield power roles well. If you want to, that is.

[Cyneheard]

I need to show up more often. Between trying to not live in front of my computer, work, and PB5/PBEM22 being at the beginning and end-games, I've ignored the hardest of my games to play.

MJW's play is far too dense and meta-y for me to try to discern with much certainty. I wish I could say WHY Selrahc's analysis of MJW's play makes sense.

Slowcheetah, however, seems to only show up when suspicion is placed upon him, and in a way that would make a lot of sense for a wolf who knows that he's just going to stick his foot in his mouth. I'm sticking with him, because I trust that read more than I trust my ability to follow Selrahc (and others) off a cliff.


I do want to add something to slowcheetah's power role analysis:
Currency tech gives me a limited-shot roleblock. It doesn't block kills. How strong a power is that? Depends on what everyone else's power is. If people want me to discuss that in more detail, I will.

Meiz's power was the ability to keep a single player from voting for him. Has some value late late-game, but not this early.

[slowcheetah]

The reason I show up when suspicion has been placed on me, is because suspicion has been on me at the start of everyday aside from day 1. I then refute the argument and say what I think, generally I then stop pushing because I've found an argument I am comfortable with and don't feel the need to relieve the pressure. Since nothing much seems to change in these games until the last hour or so I haven't had to change my vote much.

I don't see how that's particularly bad villager play, particularly for a newer player who has less of a read on everyone.

I also don't see how that argument screams wolf more than MJW who wasted what could potentially be a wolfthwarting role within a few hours and has been using it as a shield ever since?

[Cyneheard]

I also don't see how that argument screams wolf more than MJW who wasted what could potentially be a wolfthwarting role within a few hours and has been using it as a shield ever since?

I spent some time thinking about this, and your metaargument about the roles limiting MJW's metaargument of his own. You're definitely not in the "clear" on my absurdly rough list of innocent vs guilty, but for now:

MJW

[Gaspar]

I'll add some deeper thought in a little bit but I torn right now.

On MJW, I really agree with the meta-shield and waste of a power argument. Also, I not only haven't agreed with him this game (normal) but I've also felt his attitude is very anti-town. On the other hand, I really don't like the company that I'm keeping.

On slowcheetah, he's making a lot of sense right now. On the other hand, he's making a lot of sense right now.

[Cyneheard]

I'll add some deeper thought in a little bit but I torn right now.

On MJW, I really agree with the meta-shield and waste of a power argument. Also, I not only haven't agreed with him this game (normal) but I've also felt his attitude is very anti-town. On the other hand, I really don't like the company that I'm keeping.

On slowcheetah, he's making a lot of sense right now. On the other hand, he's making a lot of sense right now.

The past few hours have been just the usually quiet ones. I guess much of the board is on Euro or other non-US times, and therefore not around in the evenings when I'm available?

Re: your point on MJW more directly:
First, I think it's unfair to blame Mardoc and Slowcheetah for being "bad company": they're clearly on the chopping block themselves, and so their choices for self-preservation can only be read so closely. That leaves, well, me and Selrahc to consider.

I'm not going to argue for myself being someone to trust automatically or even all that strongly, that would be when I've been as silent as I've been since Day 1, and only so helpful when I've been around. I need to be willing to deal with the stress that comes with these games and get over my skepticism of making arguments when I expect them to get discounted b/c I either say them poorly or b/c I haven't been always tracking the whys and wherefores that have been going on. It's the only way I'll learn and get better.

But I'd put Selrahc in at least the tier of "no more suspicious than the average of the rest of the lot." Trusting novice unquestioningly = obviously bad play, even if novice is safe. But I see no reason why Selrahc's suspicions need to be discounted.

Note: I wouldn't be surprised if we've got a wolf with some cover (i.e., that on a list like Selrahc's you'd find 2 of the wolves in the top 3-4 choices...but the other one is an experienced player who's managed to stay hidden, or at least not particularly suspicious). For now, though, no reason to think we shouldn't focus on the more likely suspects.