Werewolf 12: Game Thread

[novice]

Ichabod, I like you. But that's a lot of writing, and yet I'm pretty sure I can summarize all of those recent posts in this alone:

I don't think that's fair. Ichabod's point that a village not-twice-in-a-row watcher would be unbalancing for the wolf factions is good and hasn't been pointed out by anyone else.

[Ichabod]

Ichabod, I like you. But that's a lot of writing, and yet I'm pretty sure I can summarize all of those recent posts in this alone:

What? Why were you voting for Commodore, than, if I'm a wolf framing him?

Or do you expect me to have found all the wolves?

Or are you saying that I'm defending Commodore and Tasunke? I'm pretty much happy about lynching Commodore, but I want to have a bit more of discussion. That's why I voted for Gaspar.

Really strange vote, Mardoc...

[Serdoa]

Mardoc

[Mardoc]

I don't think that's fair. Ichabod's point that a village not-twice-in-a-row watcher would be unbalancing for the wolf factions is good and hasn't been pointed out by anyone else.

Well, that's true. It puts a lot of emphasis on reading NobelHelium, though.

What? Why were you voting for Commodore, than, if I'm a wolf framing him?

...

Or are you saying that I'm defending Commodore and Tasunke? I'm pretty much happy about lynching Commodore, but I want to have a bit more of discussion. That's why I voted for Gaspar.

I don't think you're a wolf framing Commodore. I think you're trying to take his inevitable demise and spin it into taking Tasunke down with him, while simultaneously distancing yourself.

You didn't say a whole lot about their actual cases, but you've got a bunch of emotional things to say about them:

I was worried after seeing the bigger mislynch that we might have been railroading things to a wolf victory: after bigger, it was kind of obvious that we needed to lynch commodore, after that, Tasunke, and so on. If these guys are villagers, we would be in trouble. It's pretty obvious that there's not a lot of new candidates being brought forth.

...

I was feeling that Tasunke was indeed an innocent being framed.

So, everything points out that Tasunke is a wolf watcher? No, there are some counter arguments:

I think it's hard to believe a watcher wouldn't watch every day, but what do other think?

So, Tasunke's power limitation really does not make sense with a villager watcher, because it'd be imbalanced against a wolf faction.

Does that mean we should lynch Tasunke today? Maybe not. Next post I'll talk about Commodore.

Why Commodore may be a better lynch today?

He claims to be a vanilla villager. I don't believe this claim until I see another vanilla villager claim. Why? Because Rowain's power is really, really bad and it's definetely a filler role.

So, by lynching Commodore today, we might be lucky and hit another watcher wolf, which would make Tasunke the obvious target for the next lynch. If he's a vanilla villager, we could give Tasunke some more time and get his Watcher result for night 3. Assuming he's a villager, we would gain something, at least.

So, I'd prefer lynching Commodore over Tasunke today. But that's not the only things I want to talk about. Because I still have a point of fear that we are being played into lynch easy targets.

I don't think Commodore could be a tracker. I just mix Tracker and Watcher easily. I don't think he can be a tracker, I think it's likely that he's a second wolf watcher.

Sorry, Commodore, but that way of acting seems better for the village. If Tasunke is indeed a wolf watcher, it's likely that there's more than 1 wolf watcher. There'll be plenty of possible evidence against him in the future and that includes the result of lynching you.

You may see that I haven't voted for you yet, though. There may be some better targets lurking around, trying to make us keep going in the railroaded way...

I don't know. I need to make some further readings of the thread. It worries me, though. Assuming Tasunke and Commodore are just being framed, and assuming there's at least 6 wolves, at end of night 4 we would be 8-5.

And since I get the feel that both Tasunke and Commodore are logical targets, it worries me that we won't have any discussion and it'll be too late.

Anyway, the wolves have to kill each otehr to win, according to the rules. So, maybe the village won't be that damaged at the end of night 4 (and maybe Tasunke and Commodore are wolves).

I'm starting to suspect Gaspar and Lewwyn. My suspicions against Zakalwe wen't down a bit on day 2, but are now up. Pindicator is the player that makes me torned, he's either very wolfish or very villagerish and I'm not sure about which. This means that I have t reread and filter this thoughts a bit.

What I seem to take from your posts is a confusing mixture of Tasunke, Commodore, Gaspar, Lewwyn, Zakalwe, Pindicator, and now me, are all both incredibly suspicious and yet quite likely innocent. You don't give any evidence for the possibility that they're being framed, despite your 'fear' - a frame suggests a framer, doesn't it? Yet there's not a single word about who that might be, what they've said that's being twisted, or anything along those lines.

More, you reference the general opinion of them, rather than going back and getting quotes. Aside from the 'Commodore as vanilla villager is suspicious' bit (which is hard to get away from), you don't actually refer to evidence at all. It's all theory, impressions, metagaming. Which really reminds me of WW7, honestly.

And lastly, I can't see the point of your argument. You're simultaneously alleging, if I read it right, that Comm/Tas are being framed, that they're actually guilty, that they should be lynched, and that we should lynch other targets. And that the cases against them are similar, which I also disagree with. What did you intend to achieve?

What you actually achieved was confusion. You're a good writer. I don't think you'd confuse by accident. If you're confusing on purpose - well, that certainly points to you being a wolf.

[Mardoc]

What you actually achieved was confusion. You're a good writer. I don't think you'd confuse by accident. If you're confusing on purpose - well, that certainly points to you being a wolf.

More than that. This is the impression I've had from you all game. I can't figure out what you're thinking. You post a lot, and yet never seem to make a case. Everything you post is X, but also Y and Z, impressions, gut feel, fog, confusion, and mystery.

The most clear thing you've said all game was this, three posts ago:

I'm pretty much happy about lynching Commodore, but I want to have a bit more of discussion.

But, well - you spent an awful lot of time and words on those posts, you could have started the discussion directly!

Instead, you went back and forth, here and there, left me totally confused, and then voted for Gaspar without saying much of anything. One data point, is all you want to bring up, not even really as an accusation, just an attention-getting vote? No questions about Day1, or Day2, where we have a little more information? No case to try to get a wagon on him, force him to respond? I know you have the time for that, you just demonstrated that with your 1000+ words of confusion.

[Ichabod]

Well, so let me summarize my thoughts in order to make them more understandable:

1. Between Commodore and Tasunke, we gain more by lynching Commodore first. Both these lynches are based on arguments about their claims. Regarding their play so far, I think both of them made a lot of strange, without a lot of content posts (that I can remember).

2. My framing comment is not directed at a specific player. It's directed to the wolves as a whole and the village play as a whole. The example is WW7 actually. In that game, the only day the wolves got heat was the last one (scooter received some earlier). Why? Because all previous days had obvious targets.

See our game here:

Day 1. We got MNG
Day 2. Pretty much a Commodore/Bigger landslide.
Day 3. Commodore and Tasunke (due to the not watching thing).
Day 4. I can't see us deviating from Tasunke/Commodore, whoever is left.

You see, our targets start to seem a bit set in stone. That's bad and I don't like it. If none of them are wolves, we will be in a pretty bad position on day 5. That's what I think is bad and I want to avoid by discussing other targets. And that's why I'm going to ask now that if there's another vanilla villager out there, please say so. Commodore isn't a spendable lynch just so you (if you are a vanilla villager) can "protect" our power-roles by not claiming.

3. I bring forth Gaspar as a suspect, because it seems to me that he already knew that Tasunke couldn't watch two targets in a row. Maybe because he's playing with the other wolf watcher as a pack-member. Whatever the reason, that's the impression I had.

[Ichabod]

More than that. This is the impression I've had from you all game. I can't figure out what you're thinking. You post a lot, and yet never seem to make a case. Everything you post is X, but also Y and Z, impressions, gut feel, fog, confusion, and mystery.

The most clear thing you've said all game was this, three posts ago:


But, well - you spent an awful lot of time and words on those posts, you could have started the discussion directly!

Instead, you went back and forth, here and there, left me totally confused, and then voted for Gaspar without saying much of anything. One data point, is all you want to bring up, not even really as an accusation, just an attention-getting vote? No questions about Day1, or Day2, where we have a little more information? No case to try to get a wagon on him, force him to respond? I know you have the time for that, you just demonstrated that with your 1000+ words of confusion.

Well, I had the time to write those posts, but rereading day 1 and 2 takes a lot more time and will. I wanted to make some general thoughts on this first 24h and use the next to reread the last days. But if it's just confusion, then might as well just take the least effort path and lynch Commodore -> Tasunke. That'd be okay, like I've already said.

[Mardoc]

Well, I had the time to write those posts, but rereading day 1 and 2 takes a lot more time and will. I wanted to make some general thoughts on this first 24h and use the next to reread the last days. But if it's just confusion, then might as well just take the least effort path and lynch Commodore -> Tasunke. That'd be okay, like I've already said.

Gah, I sure hope I'm right that I'm being deliberately misunderstood. Because this is maddening!

I have no objection, whatsoever, to considering alternate lynch targets. I may be convinced that Commodore is a wolf, but I'm not convinced on Tasunke, and in any event, I've been wrong before, I'll be wrong again. Heck, even if the consensus is right, and both on the block are wolves, that still leaves several to be caught.

My complaint about your behavior is that you aren't living up to your own recommendation. You made a big case for extending discussion to others, left me on the edge of my seat as to who you were about to accuse, and then you stopped. One sentence on Gaspar, one sentence on me, and then another description of the problem of getting fixated on targets.

[Commodore]

Well, Ichabod, you are most assuredly not a quiet wolf, I'll grant. I still will stick to Tasunke based on the impression that he's a handy-dandy twofer in bed with you. The only point you've kind of made well though is the point that obviously the wolves (yourself included) do in general gain from a railroad, particularly with a mislynch in the mix. So why are you against it? It would seem to make it fairly clear, then, that there are two packs grey announcer aside, because you're not worried about the railroad helping the wolves...you're worried because you are, despite some admirable attempts to distance yourself, obviously linked to Tasunke. He's stopped addressing you, I notice, I'm sure you told him to burn the link as much as possible. So assuming two packs, killing MNG, then Tasunke, then you...wipes out your pack. Game goes on, and we still have a hard time picking up who the greys are, but it's complete over for pack white.

I think that's a good outcome for the village, we have a situation of a wolf is a wolf is a wolf, so that's only 1 or even if I die 2 mislynches and three wolves swinging.

[Gaspar]

Don't want to say too much because I'd like to reread the last 24-48 hours before getting heavily into anything. More bullets...


I agree with Ichabod that landsliding Commodore and/or Tasunke and then other one feels like WW7 to me. The downside to nailing a wolf on day one is we all think we're a lot smarter than we actually are. The village tends to perform worse when we do this repeating the same day ritual.
Additionally, I still lean innocent on Commodore, but only a minor read.
People other than Tasunke who seem at least a little off to me: zakalwe, Injera, Lewwyn. I'll read later and try and present a case for one or more.
People I still have only minor or no reads on due to low or no activity: Molach, Sareln, pling, Jkaen, Commodore
I see people's issues with Walls of Text. They tend to get a hearty pat on the back followed by little to no discussion.

As far as the case of me and Tasunke - frankly, no. I wasn't especially interested in who he would say he watched before voting. For one, I think he's been a bit duplicitous and for two, last time he needed to be pressured before telling us anything anyway. So I had no insight, I just don't care. Since we've moved to the everyone gets a power role metagame, I don't jump up and down when I see one.

Anyway, maybe its wrong but that's my thinking. I'll accept I haven't been very good this game, but it doesn't change my innocence.