Werewolf 12: Game Thread

[zakalwe]

My ability only has a limited number of shots; no other restrictions.

8. A member of a werewolf pack may attempt to kill one player at night. Only one werewolf kill attempt will be made per night.

I don't think this is entirely unambiguous. From the first sentence it sounds like all wolf packs may submit a kill order and only one of them goes through, but from the second sentence it also sounds like only one pack actually submits an order, i.e. there is some predetermined kill order. I was going by the latter assumption earlier, which seems the most logical. (Perhaps there was a coin flip for who goes first?)

Whatever the kill order is, I think a village investigator that cannot freely choose which night(s) to act sounds fishy.

[Jkaen]

I have no problem with us saying the usage type of our skills as requested, but can we please leave it until the day time to do so, giving this info out at night just helps wolves

[zakalwe]

Yeah, you're right about that, Jkaen. I didn't mind answering because I was already thinking that I have to reveal my role tonight. On night 2, I redirected all actions targeting Meiz to target Commodore instead. The idea was obviously to redirect the night kill to a target more to my liking, but no such luck. I don't think it hurts us all that much that I reveal this now, and it could potentially be very bad if I got killed without revealing it.

To be clear, any kind of mass claim should wait until the morning.

[Catwalk]

Feel free to call me dense, but I don't see what would be very bad about you being eaten without revealing that you've made a single failed attempt at redirection which tells us nothing.

[pling]

Feel free to call me dense, but I don't see what would be very bad about you being eaten without revealing that you've made a single failed attempt at redirection which tells us nothing.

Say we have a seer, say that seer scried Meiz and got Commodore's alignment, say Meiz is actually village and we lynched him based on that false info ... and that's just the very first thing that springs to mind.

[Catwalk]

That is true, my bad.

[Meiz]

That was intended as a humorous way of saying "Mr. Nice Guy, for voting for me." - which, incidentally, was the same reason given by Uberfish and Rowain. (Injera's vote was just a joke vote at that point.)

I understood that. I simply meant that I don't think that vote was that significant in getting MNG lynched. It could have been easily changed forward (assuming you would be a white wolf)

The rest of your post revolves a lot around me and MNG being on the same team. I have defended against that accusation before, and I don't think I can add much to it. Just consider if you really think day 1 would have played out as it did if that was the case. I think the accusation is a bit inconsistent with all the "pied piper" and "cat herder" characterizations that are thrown my way.

Yes well I don't think you've so far been such a village leader as in previous games.

Do you think Commodore is a lone wolf? Could he not be in a pack with one or more experienced players, and argue internally that they should play a high-risk game?

So basically you are saying that the wolves (with perhaps an experience member) would have talked if killing uberfish is worth the risk, and Commodore as a risk taker would have argued for it. Yes, it's possible but quite far fetched. I definitely did not get this idea from your initial post.

On night 2, I redirected all actions targeting Meiz to target Commodore instead. The idea was obviously to redirect the night kill to a target more to my liking, but no such luck.

But this is quite interesting. Not sure what conclusion to draw from it. If you are telling the truth, it would seem villagerish action to me. I doubt any villager PR's would have been that interested in scanning me on night 1, so this wouldn't make much sense as a wolf frame attempt.

---

I think Ichabod makes quite good case against Mardoc. It's just strange how it completely goes against my initial read on Mardoc's game. Have to think about it tomorrow :/

Mardoc made a big case against MNG, but it could have been at point where MNG was clearly going down. He was also very dismissive on the wolf announcement, but then again it would be quite natural if he is on a white pack, since they didn't announce it.

[Ichabod]

As for the tracker/watcher thing, Ichabod's arguing that Mardoc is a white wolf who picked up on it. In which case he wouldn't mind lynching Commodore, so the two cases against Mardoc are both suspicious but can't really be aggregated into one, if that makes sense.

Not necessarely. He could be a black wolf. The fact that I "divinated" that Commodore was a tracker would sound strange to the black pack too. They would also be mistifyed about how I knew that and the only possible explanation would be that I'm a white wolf.

[Mardoc]

You started voting for me right after I mistakingly said Commodore was the tracker while meaning watcher, Mardoc. Now it makes sense to me about why you did that. It indeed make sense as a wolf play.

That's why you are suspicious. Your already claimed limitation is just icing on the cake.

But that's not true. I started voting for you right after you built a lot of suspense in a confusing manner, implying that you were about to make a case for someone other than Commodore and Tasunke, and then failed to deliver.

I think I made my case pretty well in these posts:

Well, that's true. It puts a lot of emphasis on reading NobelHelium, though.


I don't think you're a wolf framing Commodore. I think you're trying to take his inevitable demise and spin it into taking Tasunke down with him, while simultaneously distancing yourself.

You didn't say a whole lot about their actual cases, but you've got a bunch of emotional things to say about them:
[SPOILER]

What I seem to take from your posts is a confusing mixture of Tasunke, Commodore, Gaspar, Lewwyn, Zakalwe, Pindicator, and now me, are all both incredibly suspicious and yet quite likely innocent. You don't give any evidence for the possibility that they're being framed, despite your 'fear' - a frame suggests a framer, doesn't it? Yet there's not a single word about who that might be, what they've said that's being twisted, or anything along those lines.

More, you reference the general opinion of them, rather than going back and getting quotes. Aside from the 'Commodore as vanilla villager is suspicious' bit (which is hard to get away from), you don't actually refer to evidence at all. It's all theory, impressions, metagaming. Which really reminds me of WW7, honestly.

And lastly, I can't see the point of your argument. You're simultaneously alleging, if I read it right, that Comm/Tas are being framed, that they're actually guilty, that they should be lynched, and that we should lynch other targets. And that the cases against them are similar, which I also disagree with. What did you intend to achieve?

What you actually achieved was confusion. You're a good writer. I don't think you'd confuse by accident. If you're confusing on purpose - well, that certainly points to you being a wolf.

More than that. This is the impression I've had from you all game. I can't figure out what you're thinking. You post a lot, and yet never seem to make a case. Everything you post is X, but also Y and Z, impressions, gut feel, fog, confusion, and mystery.

The most clear thing you've said all game was this, three posts ago:


But, well - you spent an awful lot of time and words on those posts, you could have started the discussion directly!

Instead, you went back and forth, here and there, left me totally confused, and then voted for Gaspar without saying much of anything. One data point, is all you want to bring up, not even really as an accusation, just an attention-getting vote? No questions about Day1, or Day2, where we have a little more information? No case to try to get a wagon on him, force him to respond? I know you have the time for that, you just demonstrated that with your 1000+ words of confusion.

[/SPOILER]

To summarize:
Ichabod spent a lot of time and effort yesterday going around in circles. He expressed a lot of fear that Commodore and Tasunke were being railroaded, but didn't do anything afterward. Unfortunately, I played my hand too early, and Ichabod, being the good writer he is, started making sense again. It's like a lightswitch!

The case on me? Ichabod's claiming that he's obviously innocent, so my case is flimsy, and therefore I'm a wolf. Oh, and that it would be unfair to the wolves for me (or Tasunke, or anyone else) to have a every other night power, and therefore NobleHelium wouldn't do it.

[Mardoc]

In fact, let me get this straight, Ichabod. You're claiming that I'm a wolf, who's managed to hide quite well up until that point. I see you make a "wolf slip", which consists of mixing up the role Tasunke claimed with the role we've actually had in previous werewolf games. From that slip, I:

1. Immediately realize you must be a wolf. There can't be any other explanation.
   
2. Decide that you have to die.
   
3. Throw away my cover, to challenge you immediately, without even taking the time to build a case.
   

Does that make any sense? Step 1 is iffy at best - one word slip does not a werewolf make, especially one that you notice and correct.
Step 2 is also iffy. Why does a wolf want another wolf to die? Especially this early in the game?
Step 3, though...you must think I'm an idiot. I'm hypothetically a wolf here, and I decide to challenge you directly? Immediately, full force, no delay for insinuations? Have you *ever* been lynched?

If I'm a wolf, then I can just nightkill you. Problem solved! No need to do anything directly, just carry on keeping my cover intact, Ichabod dies during the night. No rush, either, he's injecting confusion and confusion is my friend.

But, as it stands, I don't have that option. The only way I see you dying is if I can muster enough support to get you lynched. This might be the first time that's achieved, if I can figure out how to show others what I see, but I still don't think I have great odds. If I do, it's likely to be a post-mortem award. It'll be worth it, though, to get a wolf as slippery as you.