Football Manager 2011 general questions

[yuris125]

Forwards line up in a Shane Smeltz as Poacher STL, Madine as Target Man ( Support ) STC and Miller as Target Man ( Attack ) STR.

Didn't look at the save, but in general, how would Target Man (Support) and Target Man (Attack) work together? Or is the idea that the Support guy creates chances for the Poacher, and the Attack forward scores headers himself? As far as I understand the role, Target Man is more about opening spaces for others than about scoring himself, and assigning this role to 2 of 3 forwards sounds too limiting

[Mist]

Didn't look at the save, but in general, how would Target Man (Support) and Target Man (Attack) work together?

Think of it as two bruisers making a havoc for the small guy to use. Note that this is strictly personnel linked to having Miller on the field, who is an athletic, but selfish and not really creative player hat tends to get a lot of goals from individual efforts. With him off Poacher - Target Man Support - Advanced Forward is the way to go.

As for roles, supporting target man works as you describe it - get the ball, outmuscle the defender and lay it off. Attacking target man is more as 'get the ball and try to bruteforce it into the back of the net'. Having both of them requires a specific type of player, but can work as long as you have very creative midfield behind them.

[Twinkletoes89]

Well I cracked the Sheffield Wednesday tactics in the end thanks to your help which got me to take them to 9th in the EPL after automatic promotion.

That (somehow) got me the Manchester City job replacing Mourinho after losing the title on goal difference.

I started off with a top-notch squad imo and have strengthened it with talented young players to potentially create a dynasty. Players like Devlin, Carreras, Arancibia, Anderson and Rexha should be stars even now.

However, I have board expectations to win the league and get to the final of the Champions League. I have had an iffy pre-season and although I am 3 from 3 in the league, the Community Shield was a disaster and I am really uncertain on how to convert my current tactic (that I used successfully at SW) to this squad. My defense really seems to be performing poorly.

My tactic atm is a 4-5-1 variation like this:

Goalkeeper (Defend) - Hart (Rexha & Vilchynski)
RB (Full Back - Auto) - Srna (Mariano)
LB (Full Back - Auto) - Coentrao (Emanuelson & Douglas)
CB (Centre Back - Cover) - Vertonghen (Anderson)
CB (Centre Back - Stopper) - Kompany (Samba, Badstuber)

DM (Defensive Mid - Support) - M'Vila (Vidal, Veloso)

CM (Adv Playmaker - Attack) - Holtby (Ramsey, Wilshere, Silva)
CM (D L Playmaker - Support) - Ramsey (Veloso, Wilshere)

AMR (Winger - Attack) - Gervinho (Milner)
AML (Inside Forward - Attack) - Devlin (Tevez, Fleck)

CF (Complete Forward - Attack) - Dzeko (Horeau, Carreras, Arancibia)

I designate the CF as a target man with mixed setting on Team Instructions.

Only other variation that worked at Sheff Wed I am considering is where the midfield changes to:

CM (Ball Winning - Defend) - M'Vila (Vidal, Veloso)
CM (Adv Playmaker - Support) - Ramsey (Wilshere)

AM (Treq - Attack) - Holtby (Silva, Wilshere)

I am open to any suggestions to change it if you think it would work.

Hoping Mist will come in with his super expertise again!

Here is a link to the save :-> Click Here

[Mist]

Well, you did win with United, so it can't be that bad There's not much wrong with this formation at the moment. If I was to change anything, but keep the shape

*) Ditch stopper/cover central defense. It just doesn't work with a DM present because the Stopper and the DM tend to get into each others way.
*) Put someone more defensive minded in DM slot ( Vertonghen, Kompany ) and give him a license to go forward a bit ( Support role ), they should rack in a heap of interceptions and tackles and make your defense more solid
*) Holtby does not work as a playmaker, he's too selfish. Change playmaking MC slot to Deep Playmaker ( Defend duty to stay behind action and recycle possession ) and put M'Vila there
*) Make the other MC slot purely attacking ( CM - Attack ) and use Holtby there
*) Tevez and Devlin are being wasted at AML, it's not because what you intended them to do, but because of how match engine implements AML Inside Forward. If you want to keep the position like that you need someone with better crossing and more pace. If you want to keep using Tevez, this position needs to become AMCL Inside Forward.
*) Gervinho should be a Support winger, Attack duty makes him put in a lot of early crosses that go nowhere because there's not enough targets for them in the box.
*) I'm not a fan of Dzeko as a single striker, the bastard is good, but lazy. Single strikers need to run and work the defenses hard.

That said, you have a team with a heap of very good central, attacking midfielders but not a lot of cover for wings ( and most of your wingers can play central too ). Have you considered some sort of no wing formation? 3-2-3-2, 3-6-1, 4-1-2-1-2 ( narrow diamond ), 4-1-3-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 all seem like they could work for you. I actually tried a flavor of 3-6-1 on your save, and while results were not spectacular, I kind of got it to work ( 2-2 vs. Real Madrid at home, 0-0 vs. Arsenal away ) and I guess that with little tweaking and time for players to get familiar with it, it'd grow into a very strong system.

[Twinkletoes89]

Thanks for that Mist.

I really want to keep Devlin in the side - he's a regen who I have nurtured into a wonderkid and ends up putting in great seasonal performances at AML Inside Forward.

Would formations something like this work:



On the left we have player roles of

DM - Deep Lying Playmaker - Defend
CMR - Advanced Playmaker - Support
CML - Central Midfielder - Attack

STR - Deep Lying Forward - Support
STL - Poacher - Attack

Middle one:

CMR - DLP - Defend
CML - Ball Winning - Defend
AMR - Att Midfielder - Attack
AMC - Adv Playmaker - Support
AML - Att Midfielder - Attack

STR - DLF - Support
STL - Poacher - Attack

And on the right:

DM - Defensive Midfielder - Support
CMR - DLP - Defend
CML - CM - Attack
AM - Adv Playmaker - Support
STR - DLF - Support
STL - Poacher - Attack

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If any of them are suitable, what kind of team instructions would you suggest?

I was thinking it should be something like Control given the talent I have, but would that be too aggressive?

I just seem to struggle to figure out which things work better in each formation. I nearly always put zonal marking out of habit and aside from that I rarely tweak them at all unless I'm playing defensive mentality and then I stand off more and play more direct.

[Mist]

DM - Deep Lying Playmaker - Defend
CMR - Advanced Playmaker - Support
CML - Central Midfielder - Attack

This is possibly overcomplicated, two playmakers in a midfield can work, but on condition that they have time and space on the ball. Quality opposition that presses a lot and is good in tackle will smother them to death. That's how you lost the Charity Shield btw, Arsenal pressed your midfield out of the game. Either replace DLP with a DM, or AP with a BWM, you need some muscle in midfield.

STR - Deep Lying Forward - Support
STL - Poacher - Attack

I'm not a fan, and that goes for the other two formations too. Conventional vision says Advanced Forward - Deep Lying Forward *or* Target Man - Poacher.
With Devlin and Tevez though I'd try something like this : Advanced Forward ( or Target Man ) in a STCR slot, passing focused down right, Inside Forward in a STL slot. This tends to shift opposing defense towards your right and gives your extreme left player a lot more time and space than he'd have usually. Both Devlin and Tevez should really enjoy that.

Middle one:

Don't use when opposition plays AMCs, your MCs won't track back enough and you'll be riped to shreds.

CMR - DLP - Defend
CML - Ball Winning - Defend
AMR - Att Midfielder - Attack
AMC - Adv Playmaker - Support
AML - Att Midfielder - Attack

Again, two playmakers are an overkill, either replace DLP with another BWM or AP with supporting Inside Forward. This should be a fantastic tactic for counterattacking. Devlin/Tevez as Teraquista here possibly?

And on the right:

Narrow diamond requires two Ball Winners in the MC slots, otherwise you leave opposing wingers too much freedom. Other three midfield roles ( consider STCL as a part of midfield here ) should be a creative player, a runner and a highly technical player ( playmaker, inside forward and teraquista for example )

I was thinking it should be something like Control given the talent I have, but would that be too aggressive?

Control is a very specialized approach for oppositions that park the bus. It shouldn't be used all the time, and when it is, never for the whole game. Given your quality you should use Standard/Counter most of the time depending on where you play ( Home/Away ) and who you play. Get into habit of flipping Contain for the last 10 minutes of any game you lead in, will save you loads of stress

I just seem to struggle to figure out which things work better in each formation. I nearly always put zonal marking out of habit and aside from that I rarely tweak them at all unless I'm playing defensive mentality and then I stand off more and play more direct.

Well, I can understand the point of view. But I don't think your side is that much better than competition in this season ( it might be in 3 years, they do have huge potential ) and if you want to hit board targets, you might need to work for it.

[Twinkletoes89]

So if you were to have my squad, which formation would you use?

And should I be looking at doing more team instruction tweaks - like fluid v rigid / drill or float crosses / marking / creative freedom etc?

[Mist]

All three.

The middle one on small/short pitches, facing a worse team or at home when opposition does not use AMCs.

The first one when playing on a wide pitch, playing a better team or similar team away.

The third one on a narrow pitch, against a team that's not a threat in the air or a team with no wingers at all.

Play more fluid when attacking and more rigid in defense, treat Stick to Position as +/- shift in fluidity setting ( so More Roaming/ Balanced would be Balanced+ ), don't touch Creative Freedom ( unless you want your players to ignore your instructions most of the time ). As for the rest, I tend to leave them alone after I picked initial combination for a tactics, but if you don't watch the games in TV View ( and use shouts ) you might need to touch Pressing, Tackles and Crosses ( Drilling makes play faster, Floating slows it down ) depending on situation.

[Twinkletoes89]

How do shouts work?

Will I have to watch every game on tv view all game (can it work in 2D for that case?) ?

Do I need to do loads every game or is it just a couple here or there when you see certain things?

[Mist]

How do shouts work?

They take your current tactics and make it play a bit differently without gimping the familiarity bars as happens when you change team instructions.

Will I have to watch every game on tv view all game (can it work in 2D for that case?) ?

No, you don't have to watch the game in TV View, but commentary only mode doesn't really tell you what shout would be useful at the moment and the interface gets really clunky.
2D is quite sufficient.

Do I need to do loads every game or is it just a couple here or there when you see certain things?

Some games play fine without shouts, if you don't want to watch them all, the best way is to switch to TV View when the match is not progressing as you expected ( ie. you get no shots on goal, you get carved open all the time etc. ), watch a while to get a feel why and apply shouts to try to change the situation. If you're in no hurry with playing the save, watching all matches on medium speed teaches you a lot about the game.