Green as they come: Hiding Kneel plays the Ljosalfar [SPOILERS]

[HidingKneel]

Another day, another turn. I had another look at that barbarian city:



Produced a fourth warrior this turn. Does that mean the kill team is going to get moving, now? Hope so. Should be able to get some experienced fawns out of it. Also, Gilden and company are finally healed up and ready to move. Which means it's time to explore the ruin!



Ick. Oh well, not a big deal. We'll have a priest to cure that soon, and the archer should still be able to do his job of keeping Gilden safe in the meanwhile.

[HidingKneel]

Turn 73, and a lot has gone down.

First of all, Kyan summoned the Mercurians. I think this is actually good news for us. If Ellimist got there first, he'd be pretty much unstoppable. Kyan getting there instead is not ideal, but he doesn't have nearly the synergy with Basium that Ellimist does (he gets cheap settlers but not as cheap, and he doesn't already have a core to give away). Plus, it ought to strengthen our relationship with the Clan (and makes them more likely to sell us settlers).

Ellimist sent this message in game:



and another one in email with the save:

Sorry it's late.

I have no idea what to do next. I would have completed it on Turn 74, so I missed it by two turns.

I responded with some words of comfort and encouragement:

Hey Ellimist,

Condolences on missing the gate. I wouldn't despair, though. Kyan's definitely taken the lead now, but you're still in a very strong position. And you've got plenty of other options for late-game dominance, like iron-equipped ogres. As for what do to next, I don't really have any idea except for three obvious thoughts:

a) You'll want to get out of Kilmorph as soon as possible.

b) Those soldiers of Kilmorph you've been stockpiling for the gate can be used to rush a different wonder.

c) This development makes it all the more important that we continue to cooperate.

How are your relations with the Malakim? I've got a hawk-equipped hunter that I'm intending to send south towards Weezel in the near future; I wonder how he's feeling about Kyan's gate right now.

Now, the turn itself. First, I finally got that city from Ellimist.
You can see it here:



Check it out, a wolf! And a bear down south. Looks like there are still a few animals to capture. Animal husbandry comes next after priesthood.

That barbarian city sent out its kill team:



I ought to have two fawns and a hunter by the time it arrives, so I'll have a chance to grab some more xp. Also, it's more or less perfect timing for Gilden to grab that city. It'll be a slightly risky battle, since it's defended by fortified archers on a hill.

Speaking of cities, we've got another settler coming out in four turns. So the question is where to send it. I'm thinking out here:



That forested hill site has reagents, wines, and silks, and lots of forest tiles that I can cottage. The plains hill in the southwest grabs rice (for health and Deruptus boost), and can work an incense tile across the water. Both will require a lot of time and worker turns to set up, though.

Since I'll have animal husbandry soon, another possibility is out here:



I was talking earlier about building on the desert hill, but now I'm thinking the cotton will be better. It gets fresh water and can work two tiles that would otherwise go unworked. Cottages quickly outstrip cotton planatations anyway, so the main thing I'd lose is the defensive bonus from settling on a hill (which wouldn't really matter until I got a spring adept, anyhow).

What do you think, Commodore?

Oh, and I revolted into city states this turn. Breakeven science rate is now around 90bpt.

[Commodore]

Since I'll have animal husbandry soon, another possibility is out here:



I was talking earlier about building on the desert hill, but now I'm thinking the cotton will be better. It gets fresh water and can work two tiles that would otherwise go unworked. Cottages quickly outstrip cotton planatations anyway, so the main thing I'd lose is the defensive bonus from settling on a hill (which wouldn't really matter until I got a spring adept, anyhow).

What do you think, Commodore?

Hum. Are you ever getting Sailing? The desert hill also two lighthoused lakes. Still, cotton tile is probably best. Get thee some bloomin' priests! And thank goodness FoL is neutral.

[HidingKneel]

Sailing... I'm not even sure I'll ever research fishing. Cotton it is... but does this mean you prefer the northwesterly location to the eastern locations? I'm thinking that pigs city should probably wait until we've some PoLs to spare.

[HidingKneel]

It moved! The turn moved!

What was going on in this game, anyway?

Oh, I remember. Gilden was over here, getting positioned to attack this city:



Hmm... even with a C5 promotion, Gilden only gets 75% odds on the top defender. I'm thinking it's not worth the risk [STRIKE]right now[/STRIKE] attacking across the river. Let's see how things look after moving a tile to the west.

Priests? Well, I don't have any yet. But maybe it's time to step up the pace a little. Running a slight deficit, I'll get there very soon (screenshot from EOT):



So, how am I doing, anyway? According to these numbers, the situation is not so terrible:



Of course, those numbers aren't reflecting the fact that Kyan and Ichabod are a team.

[HidingKneel]

Two more turns played. Nothing really happened on turn 75. On turn 76, our first barbarian kill team started arriving. We rolled out an appropriate welcome:



Hunter survived with no damage, then moved out of reach. Earned some xp, might use that for a subdue animal promotion in the near future. Next turn, the remains of the kill team will probably move north onto that forest, where I'll hit it with my C2 fawn.

Down here, Gilden is sizing up a barbarian city:



Now that I'm not attacking across a river, my odds are up to 90%. Well, you only live once! And what use is an early hero if I'm not going to use him to take barbarian cities?



Victory! And Gilden's got enough xp for another promotion. He's already C5... what should I take next? I'm thinking I should start giving him drill promotions.

Will need to heal a few turns before finishing the conquest of that city, though.

Evermore's now got a larger population than it does tiles to work. So it's time to get started on that altar plan. Working one priest, we ought to be able to get the first layer built by turn 130 . Well, we'll just have to find ways to speed that up.

At end of turn, we built a settler, and finished researching priesthood:



9 more hammers to finish that worker, and then Evermore will get started cranking out priests (I'll be building them in Bruti, too).

Oh, and some diplomacy with Ellimist:

The Gate was pretty much my entire gameplan. I would have done almost everything a LOT differently if I hadn't expected to get it. For one thing, I would have been a lot more aggressive.

I'm convinced that the Mercurians in general are almost unbeatable in a typical game. In addition to the benefits of having a team, they get a lot of very very good advantages and almost no disadvantages. Ichabod is going to have a plentiful supply of free (or sometimes only almost free) units that start out at 7 base strength, Combat 1, Raiders, fire resistant, immune to poison, and "not alive." If I had gotten the Gate, I was planning to spam out hoards of thanes of kilmorph and get them killed off.

I am planning to stop spreading kilmorph. If you still want a temple of it, I might send you one, but other than that I'm done with it. I'll use it occasionally for SoKs. I currently have 12 SoKs, and I haven't completely decided what to use them on. Probably prophecy of ragnarok or maybe markets. An armageddon strategy seems to have more costs than benefits, and Angels are particularly well suited to handle it.

I don't know exactly where Weezel stands. His messages at least seem to indicate that he believes Kyan's whining. Kyan also mentioned something at one point about having "two civs worth of maps," which probably means that Weezel and him have exchanged maps.

So far, he's seemed either lukewarm or else trying to play Kyan and I off against each other. His GNP has been pretty close to Kyan's for awhile now.

Ellimist

I wonder if "whining" is supposed to read "winning"? Anyway, it sounds like Ellimist's spirits are broken. I didn't reply the next turn, and got this:

I am sending this message to both Weezel and HidingKneel. I know you can't (yet) communicate directly with each other, but I am willing to forward a message from one of you to the other. I don't know to what degree either of you are willing to cooperate to stop Kyan, but if it can be done, it will probably require the efforts of everybody else.

I'll be blunt. I do not think there is currently anything we can do to prevent Kyan/Ichabod from winning the game. If he plays this out correctly, he will quickly have a large number of Angels at the same time the rest of us are building training yards. He'll gain an angel whenever a "living" Mercurian unit dies or any unit that has the runes of kilmorph, empyrean, or order religions. Some units (disciples, priests, heroes, etc.) will always have a particular religion, but any unit can also have any religion present in the city it came from.

Angels are strength 4 units that automatically get +1 holy strength and +2 strength from iron weapons(mercurian palace), as well as any experience points that the unit had before dying and becoming an angel. They are considered to be "not alive," but can prevent garrison unhappiness (unlike other nonliving units.) They have +50% resistance to death damage and +25% resistance to fire damage, and are immune to fear, poison damage, and holy damage. The Basium hero unit is 13 strength(7+4+2), has the hero promotion, and gains the immortal promotion whenever he kills certain units(units with Entropy or Death spells or the undead or demon race).

The good news is that he may not make the "correct" moves, or that I may be wrong about what those are. I doubt it. I've focused on this strategy for the entire game and do not believe there is a way to counter it. (The good news for you two is that Basium would have helped Jonas more than he will help Rhoanna.)

Regardless of how many angels Kyan and Ichabod can provide for themselves, we should attempt to avoid providing him with any from us. The other religions could give us some good tools anyway, such as Cultists, tiger summons, and ritualists. One other possibility that I've considered is hiring a large number of wolf riders from a goblin fort near Hippus lands. If we can get some hawk intel on Kyan's garrisons, we might be able to hurt him pretty bad before he has time to develop. The main problem with this is that those wolf riders get 20% of their base strength from poison, which angel units are immune to. It would be worthwhile to find out how many WRs each angel could kill before dying. I'd also provide him with angels whenever I razed a city, but a large enough number of wolf riders could probably do the job.

If either of you have any ideas, I'm open to them.

Ellimist

Not sure why Tholal isn't included. I mean, he's not exactly at the top of the scoreboard, but I don't think he's irrelevant, either.

Anyways, I'm all for plotting against Kyan:

Ellimist,



I agree that with the Mercurian alliance, Kyan is now a strong favorite to win the game. However, I don't think the situation is hopeless. The Ljosalfar are eager to cooperate with the Clan and the Malakim (and the Khazad, for that matter) in fighting the Hippus. However, it seems there is very little we can contribute at the moment. We are further from Kyan than anyone else, and our military strength is primarily defensive. Perhaps we could try to garner some hawk intelligence for you?

I agree with your assessment regarding the good religions. We would still like to have a temple of Kilmorph in Evermore, but there is no need to worry that this will supply Kyan with angels: we have no plans to build military units there, other than priests. (We finished researching priesthood this turn and will commence building Priests of Leaves immediately. Once we have a few, we will be happy to send some north for you.)

One point: I think you are mistaken about Basium's immortality. I believe that was a change that Sareln introduced. In standard FFH, Basium only lives once. And killing him would severely weaken the Mercurians. Not that I expect it to be easy to kill a strength 13 unit. But the evil religions are the ones that provide good options for collateral damage, which can work wonders.

Another point: from the demographics, it looks like Ichabod doesn't have any cities yet. I'd expect Kyan and Ichabod to be fairly careful about that, but it is a vulnerability: if he founds that city on the outskirts of Kyan's territory with minimal defenses, razing it would end the Mercurians.

On the larger questions, I think you shouldn't give up hope. The Mercurians are strong, but there are plenty of powerful options in FFH, especially in the late game. My own thoughts: obviously, the other four civilizations should not waste any strength fighting each other.

It would also be good to avoid a situation where Kyan picks us off one-by-one. Though I'm not exactly sure how to avoid this, given the distances involved.

Where do you expect Kyan to go next? In his position, I'd be aiming to found Empyrean and later pick up Chalid. Rathas will benefit from his horselord trait and provide angels for Basium.

Finally, a more mundane question: when do you expect to have another settler ready?

[Commodore]

Drill line is a go! Healing is annoying, dispense with taking damage when possible, ie, First Stike 'em to death.

[Merovech]

Drill line is a go! Healing is annoying, dispense with taking damage when possible, ie, First Stike 'em to death.

What about additional heroic strength/defense promotions, since Gilden already has 1 first strike? Is their lack of versatility not worth it?

Also, a rather noobish question: How did Kyan summon the Mercurians without someone first summoning the Infernals? Was this changed from the (somewhat incomplete) vanilla civ 4 version of Fall From Heaven to the BTS version?

[GreyWolf]

Yeah. in BTS you can summon Baisum regardless of what happens to Hyborem.

[Merovech]

Yeah. in BTS you can summon Baisum regardless of what happens to Hyborem.

Okay, thanks!