[SPOILER] Kyan + thestick. Is that the best you can do?

[Kyan]

You'll get America for color, then!

Could we have white as primary colour with black as secondary pretty please?

[thestick]

I keep losing my big post.

Isn't Fishing a pretty bad starting tech? We probably shouldn't build Work Boats until Bronze Working and chops.

Tech analysis:
Maya Mining/Mysticism - We probably don't want an early religion. Same techs as India, just without Fast Worker chops to make up for it
Portugal Fishing/Mining - This could actually work out, tech Bronze Working and chop Work Boats. Probably slower than land food, though.
China Agriculture/Mining - Great as always
France/Ottomans Agriculture/The Wheel - Good as always, Ottomans are the better of the two through UU and UB, though.

Portugal might actually work out here. Feitoria for Colossus coast, Carrack to settle those islands, and not terrible starting techs. Carracks are a little late and Feitorias are definitely late, though. Isn't the whole colonization thing in general a big red herring, though? Spend those hammers on tiny island cities on beakers, tech Guilds/Gunpowder/Military Tradition/Rifling and crush the opposition.

Sorry, wandering a bit.

[Kyan]

I recommend writing it in notepad, wordpad or MS word then pasting it in; especially for big posts.

Is there any reason you're not including Carthage? They have a UB (your favourite, no?) which is a) very good and b) not late.

[thestick]

SP skill level is low-Emperor. I have no MP experience outside of MP. I'm pretty sure I'm not a complete idiot, though I'm not sure I'm brilliant. Not sure how good I am right now since I'll admit I made some questionable decisions in PBEM 35.

Dwarf Planets: (Ceres) Pluto, Eris, Haumea, Makemake
Asteroids: Ceres, Pallas, Juno, Vesta. There are more, those are just the first four.

Probes:
Mercury: Messenger
Venus: Magellan, Venera
Moon: Luna, (Apollo)
Mars: Viking, Mariner, Pathfinder, Spirit, Opertunity, Phoenix
Asteroid Belt: Dawn
Fly-bys of Outer Planets: Pioneer, Voyager
Jupiter: Mariner, Galileo
Saturn: Cassini
Pluto: New Horizons

[thestick]

I recommend writing it in notepad, wordpad or MS word then pasting it in; especially for big posts.

Is there any reason you're not including Carthage? They have a UB (your favourite, no?) which is a) very good and b) not late.

Thanks. I don't remember mentioning Cothon was my favorite UB (it isn't, I personally think leader is more important). I guess I forgot Carthage's techs were the same as Portugal's, that and one trade route is a bit underwhelming. Then again, with continents, it's probably a bigger deal. Are the separate continents accessible pre-Astronomy? I missed that.

[Kyan]

Thanks. I don't remember mentioning Cothon was my favorite UB (it isn't, I personally think leader is more important). I guess I forgot Carthage's techs were the same as Portugal's, that and one trade route is a bit underwhelming. Then again, with continents, it's probably a bigger deal. Are the separate continents accessible pre-Astronomy? I missed that.

I meant UB's as a general principle were your favourite. It was a failed attempt at humour based on your previous comments.

+1 trade route in all coastal cities = half of Great Lighthouse. Bearing in mind that when you build the cothon, you also get the trade route bonus.

By internal, I mean our civ only. By external, I mean to another civ via open borders.

Internal trade routes on same continent = 1gpt
Internal trade routes to different continent = 2gpt
External trade routes on same continent = 3gpt
External trade routes to different continent = 4gpt

These are affected by time at peace etc, however, it should give you a rough indicator of their worth. Take into account that the extra trade route will get boosted by first 50% and later 100%. Great Lighthouse is banned in this and most other games for a very good reason. Cothon is half of that, that we would have, that others wouldn't. It's better than the other UU's and UB's listed when you factor in that it's not late game either.

[thestick]

Oh, when you said 'your favorite' you meant that UBs over UU, techs, and leaders.

67 hammers for an extra hamlet/town per coastal city looks pretty good, though it comes in the Medieval era. UU is bad, techs are passable. Still, the question of 'is it better than bog-standard Ottomans?'

[Kyan]

Oh, when you said 'your favorite' you meant that UBs over UU, techs, and leaders.

67 hammers for an extra hamlet/town per coastal city looks pretty good, though it comes in the Medieval era. UU is bad, techs are passable. Still, the question of 'is it better than bog-standard Ottomans?'

Those are 67 hammers you'd want to spend anyway though. This is my main argument against the Ottomans. The Ottoman UB is good, but it's a hammer exchange for happy. The Carthaginian UB is something you would want regardless and therefore the extra commerce is 'free'.

The Carthaginian UU is at least as useful as Jannisaries, if not more so. It comes a lot earlier and can be very handy. Spearmen are the obvious counter to horse archers, yet numids can still maintain their effectiveness thanks to the +50% vs melee. Whilst far from spectacular, they are not entirely useless. The Jannisary is potentially decent if we get to them before anyone else gets gunpowder. They really aren't that special. I can't think of one game at RB where they have ever been a key decider in anything.

Ottomans have the edge in starting techs- that's true. Despite that, my vote remains on Carthage. I think they offer us a potential benefit that other folk can't have.

[Brian Shanahan]

Signing in, belatedly. Had a nasty stomach bug yesterday, so couldn't venture far from the bathroom.

Personally I'd go with either China or the Ottomans. Carthage Cothons are nice and all, but if the other continent doesn't play dice, what do you do?

As regards China v Ottomans Ag/Mining beats Ag/Wheel, but not by too much. I prefer the UU and UB of the Ottomans. The Hamman is much better than the Pavilion, and the Jan is essentially the first available offensive gunpowder unit, while the Cho-Ko-Nu is a beefed up defensive unit.

I would swing with the Ottomans then.

[Kyan]

At bluewater with missus. Even without open borders, You can get an internal one from islands etc, which we know there will be.

Ottomans and china are both just so bleh. Boring unit, boring building. Neither of which you would traditionally build many of. Think outside the box. On a regular map, I'd agree with you totally. On a continents map with islands mixed in, Carthage win. As do Dutch, but I've done that.