Third time's the charm - Mardoc plays the Pirates [SPOILER]

[Mardoc]

While we wait for the technical difficulties to subside, let's consider another opponent: Iskender's Santiago of the Spartans:


What does Santiago have going for her? Honestly, not a whole lot. Free Commando promotion, but that's not a promo that buys a whole lot - extra chance of withdrawal, IIRC, and a healing bonus. Also extra GG emergence, conscripts aren't nerfed any, and the one that might matter: units act as military police. It's much easier to amass a horde of, say, flamethrowers, than it is to build a lot of happiness buildings. And that horde of flamethrowers might enable you to keep the base, after you piss off Planet by growing such big cities.

Still doesn't seem like a very impressive package. You have to pay upkeep for units, unlike other happiness sources, so that reduces the efficiency of the extra population. And if you use the units, then you're in danger of revolts, and paying huge amounts in food upkeep. I know Maniac mentioned that part of her buff is supposed to be starting with a Rover and hence getting more than her share of Unity Pods.

That said, I still am probably most scared of Iskender, of all the humans in the game. Why? Well. It's Iskender. He took old Sidar, and managed to beat both pre-nerf Keelyn and me as Orcs with 4 free Sons of the Inferno, by careful micromanagement of his economy, extremely careful diplomacy, and good tactics. And a killer instinct. None of that depends on which civ you are; it's all the person behind the monitor.

Sareln, I expect to have a strong civ but lack that killer instinct. If he doesn't get rushed . Sian I don't know much about, but he doesn't have a huge reputation anyway. Maniac obviously knows the ins and outs of the game, but I have the feeling he's not a killer either. And may be too used to AI opponents. But Iskender - he scares me.

What's the aspect of his civ that seems most likely to be unbalanced, in the end? Probably the MP. It's currently 16 hammers for either a Flamethrower or a Rover; the only other source of buildable happiness appears to be the Children's Creche, at 40 hammers. He could easily have the biggest cities on the planet, therefore, so long as he's willing to leave his army at home. When he builds Genejack Factories, he wouldn't even have to do that anymore, so long as he's willing to reconquer them from time to time.

If that breaks the game open for him, it'll do so right away. He'll build big cities ASAP, and a huge military, and then go conquer the world. None of his bonuses last until late game, when the rest of us will be starting to shine.

How do we keep up? Well, I'm thinking we've got to be ruthless about REXing. 16 hammers per happy population sounds good - but that's the same ratio we've got by building a new Sea Colony pod, at the moment - 80 hammers for a new city that can grow to size 5. Only that'll improve as we claim resources, while his ratio can only go down (whenever he gets around to obsoleting his cheap MP). And he's got to scrape up health, too, while REX can just use resources for that.

And, of course - the biggie: a horde of flamethrowers and rovers is bad for anyone's day, until he tries to cross the sea. We make sure we've got the ability to sink his transports, and he's not as much a threat.

In addition, he can't have cities that big right away, he's got to grow them. And feed them, somehow, which means time and Planet anger. And beat off the worms - probably the least of his troubles, but at least Psi combat means a fairly constant level of pain until he acquires some collateral.

[HidingKneel]

Alright, finally got my planetfall installation running and had a look at the save.

Tech thoughts: Algaculture -> archaeology sounds right. But it seems like you'll need an ordinary former to take advantage of archaeology. There's plenty of time to get one between now and when the tech completes, but something to think about.

After archeology, the two techs that jump out at me are centauri meditation (for the Empath Song promotion, to get started dominating the native life)
and Industrial Automation (to run Planned).

And I'm surprised that you're planning on building infrastructure immediately... won't you need some garrison units? Especially since you'll be starting with two bases, and adding a third in short order?

[Mardoc]

Alright, finally got my planetfall installation running and had a look at the save.

Tech thoughts: Algaculture -> archaeology sounds right. But it seems like you'll need an ordinary former to take advantage of archaeology. There's plenty of time to get one between now and when the tech completes, but something to think about.

Yeah, land formers will be an interesting question at first, given the limited number of tiles we want improved. Although there's no reason we can't also settle the land, we just don't get bonuses for it. So maybe by then we'll have found an island or two worth claiming.

After archeology, the two techs that jump out at me are centauri meditation (for the Empath Song promotion, to get started dominating the native life)
and Industrial Automation (to run Planned).

Seems about right. With a possible addition of whatever we need to unlock any relevant resources we find and settle.

And I'm surprised that you're planning on building infrastructure immediately... won't you need some garrison units? Especially since you'll be starting with two bases, and adding a third in short order?

Well, the bunker counts for one garrison. And it can do collateral. But you're right, we should plan on building a few more. Probably should be gun foils, right? With maybe a Flamethrower mixed it for cheapness?

I guess it depends on what we're guarding against - we won't have anything good on the defense against Sea life until we unlock Marines. But maybe we can keep Planet happy enough that we don't need to be good on the defense against sea life?

[Bigger]

pods are turned off, huh? That kinda negates an advantage, as we could be sure to grab most of the sea ones. oh well. we'll need gun foils tho regardless. the best way to defend against mind worms or islands of the deep is to attack them first, I assume!

[Mardoc]

pods are turned off, huh? That kinda negates an advantage, as we could be sure to grab most of the sea ones. oh well. we'll need gun foils tho regardless. the best way to defend against mind worms or islands of the deep is to attack them first, I assume!

...yes, mostly. Isles are equal strength on offense and defense (3-3), but our units are biased toward offense, at 3-2 Psi strength. And Empath Song will be a bonus to attack only. Which is the other reason we should go for Centauri Empathy early, to change battles from being mostly toss-ups to being good odds. Which of course become even better as units have the ability to fight and live, and hence gain XP. Normally you can get decent odds by attacking with Flamethrowers, but I'm pretty sure they can't attack in the ocean

Anyway, I feel I should cover the last of the opponents, but frankly Selrahc did it better in his thread in Planetfall 1. In summary - given time to build up, Morgan can be pretty effective. Starting in Expansion ought to help, as he's closer to actually using those uniques of his. But....well, he starts with nothing useful, and he's got to spend 200 hammers per city plus a couple thousand beakers to start getting those bonuses. Meanwhile, everyone else should be snowballing.

All in all, it will likely come down to player skill. Well, and perhaps starting locations. I don't think anyone's got a civ that will win them the game. In a perfectly balanced situation, I'd probably rank them at Consciousness > Data Angels > Pirates > Spartans > Morgan. But I don't yet have a good feel for just how painful Isles of the Deep can be for a Planet-hugger, not how well Spartans can be played. And of course we've got a start here that's potentially worth ~25 energy/turn for the capital on tiles we can improve and work already, while others have, well, who knows?

[Mardoc]

Hey, we have a turn 2! And, um, will be playing this one slowly as well, since I still don't see a really good choice for city 2, and I'm hoping I'm just overlooking something that one of you might notice.

First up, I moved our scouts:





Finished our Marine Lab and switched to the tile, making us clear leaders in GNP (30 to the next best 24), at least for the moment.
[url="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16549110/Mardoc%20MY-2134.CivBeyondSwordSave"]
Here's the mid-turn save[/url], if you want to look around inside. I'm probably only going to hold the turn a couple hours, and that only if I fail to find something decent on my own. Remember that because we have a positive Planet rating, we'll be getting free culture, so we can account for the full BFC. Also that we can't found on Trench (or on land) but can work both.

First thought on my part is to ignore trying to grab the Monolith just yet, and go for 2N of the Sea Colony Pod's current location. Only one resource, the Brilliance, but at least we'd have more than three tiles with 2+ food . The downside is, not a lot of fungus, and no Planet+ resources that we can have soon. But then we can't have Planet resources anyway until at least the 2nd tech, we should have grown by then by at least one city.

[Bigger]

I don't have a problem with the crowded city 2, we can always found a third or 4th city later to pick up the brilliance (thats the pink sulpher?) and the oil drum resource later.
I don't think the 2N suggestion is bad either, though.

hey, there's silver in those hills . Nice to see a resource that's at least familiar to me.

[Mardoc]

I don't have a problem with the crowded city 2, we can always found a third or 4th city later to pick up the brilliance (thats the pink sulpher?) and the oil drum resource later.
I don't think the 2N suggestion is bad either, though.

Well, we already have a Brilliance at our capital, the reason for founding there would be more because we'd be trading a lot of Coast tiles for shelf and Ocean tiles. Well, and because the Brilliance can be a 3/0/5 tile, when worked.

hey, there's silver in those hills . Nice to see a resource that's at least familiar to me.

Yep! And we're able to connect it as soon as we have it in our culture (and a land former built)! I suspect that our first built Colony Pod will be a land pod to grab this and the Monolith, given the paucity of good stuff in the ocean outside our capital's radius.

[HidingKneel]

Nothing looks great. Another possibility is 5w, 1s of capital: at least that picks up some bonus food. Maybe not worth the transit time, though.

Brilliance requires some late tech, doesn't it? If so, no rush to pick that up.

[Mardoc]

Nothing looks great. Another possibility is 5w, 1s of capital: at least that picks up some bonus food. Maybe not worth the transit time, though.

Alright, I guess I'll go with the 2N site. I agree the site you mention is decent, but it can't be founded for three turns, and it's not an awesome site either. Might be worth sending our free pod to, though, unless our scouts find something better.

Brilliance requires some late tech, doesn't it? If so, no rush to pick that up.

Yes. Psionics, the fourth tech down the Planet line. We'll be heading that way regardless if we're building our navy out of worms, but it'll still be a long time before we arrive.