Ichabod Wrote:Well, since we are going to run theocracy for +xp in the Phracts, getting forges while in OR makes a little sense. Maybe we should have used this hammers for Phracts instead of forges, but, oh, well...
Why? You use +25%h ( buildings only, doesn't boost unit builds ) civic to get a +25%h ( to anything ) buildings everywhere. OR does not hurry 'phracts. Forges will be worth it, phract at 60 hammers is a 3pop whip with no forge and just over 2pop whip with a forge. That is a huge difference if you want to go through more than one whipping round.
Ichabod Wrote:I think we have to avoid dry whipping at all costs, though. That's a point that I don't agree with Mist's strategy.
We can, we'll be just slower.
Ichabod Wrote:Not sure how can I turn this into a metaphor/parable, though.
We're shoveling away in the summer while our R&D team works on better bombs
SevenSpirits Wrote:I can't say I see a benefit to saving gold first and then teching guilds, vs teching guilds and then saving gold. Unless they have a bunch of science buildings completing we didn't hear about.
We did not plan for double golden age, that's a decision we took on the fly, so we ended up doing both - we saved gold before GA, and we ended up with some GA turns to spare, which we're just about to use to quickly raise forges everywhere, with a side effect of saving gold. We'll probably burn this while aiming for one of Liberalism/Economics/Rifling.
SevenSpirits Wrote:I can't say I see a benefit to saving gold first and then teching guilds, vs teching guilds and then saving gold. Unless they have a bunch of science buildings completing we didn't hear about.
Well, what I meant is that in your analogy, there is no down-the-road benefit, just the current drawback. Is there a net benefit in delaying guilds? Probably not, although forges in OR makes a little sense (of course, the question whether they should be building forges at all or just more phracts comes up). In other words, what they are doing is like saying "I'd rather have an energy bar and a half tomorrow instead of today, even though one energy bar today is worth 2 tommorrow," while your example is like saying "I'd rather have an energy bar tomorrow than today, even though one energy bar today is worth two tomorrow."
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Mist Wrote:Why? You use +25%h ( buildings only, doesn't boost unit builds ) civic to get a +25%h ( to anything ) buildings everywhere. OR does not hurry 'phracts. Forges will be worth it, phract at 60 hammers is a 3pop whip with no forge and just over 2pop whip with a forge. That is a huge difference if you want to go through more than one whipping round.
I think Ichabod agrees with you, he said, "a little sense," not "little sense."
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
I understand finishing OR forges in some cities before whipping phracts. But I saw your domestic advisor, you're finishing some forges right now! All you get from delaying guilds is an artificial feeling of quickness because your time from teching guilds to having an army is a bit shorter.
SevenSpirits Wrote:I understand finishing OR forges in some cities before whipping phracts. But I saw your domestic advisor, you're finishing some forges right now! All you get from delaying guilds is an artificial feeling of quickness because your time from teching guilds to having an army is a bit shorter.
I agree that there is a most likely a negative net benefit (don't want to write in absolutes because I have not done any math nor really want to). Just wanted to make that clear, because I don't think it was with my comments about your analogy.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Nicolae Carpathia Wrote:Maybe they're trying to hide the fact that they intend to tech Guilds and build an army of Cataphracts to Take Over The World .
Yeah, like that would work
Negative benefits aside ( now that's an interesting concept ), the one slim advantage of the way I'm doing it now is that all our Forges get OR bonus while built and all our Phracts will get Theocracy xp once I start whipping. I agree with Seven that in the end, I don't get to the desired number of troops any faster. But, I do make it happen in a much shorter burst. Switching from no obvious mobilisation signs to full war readiness in four turns, might just catch Dave unprepared. And it's not like the extra little bit of hammers and commerce we get from population not yet whipped goes to waste
Because it doesn't matter. Any city that finishes a Forge now ( eot 97) will start on Horse Archer, neither of them ( exception : capital ) can finish a Horse Archer in 1t ( eot 98 ). So all those hammers will get upgraded into 'Phracts in the build queue regardless of when I actually tech Guilds ( due eot 99 ).
Capital will build an missionary next ( eot 98) for that one city with taoism, and will fall in step with everything else building a 1t Horse Archer ( eot 99, upgrades in build queue before completion due to teching guilds at that exact moment )
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