Third time's the charm - Mardoc plays the Pirates [SPOILER]

[HidingKneel]

In other news...bah at defensive pacts! Although it's not like either can do anything to us now, and T90 is probably about the earliest we could have our sneaky attack force built anyway.

I'm still a multiplayer novice, so I could be completely off-base here. But my take would be this: a defensive pact, without specific commitments, sounds essentially meaningless. I mean, say you start hitting Sareln on turn 75: what is Maniac going to do? Unless he's worried about you running away with the game, it'll be in his interest to commit as little to Sareln's defense as he can get away with (even more so if he's worried about Sareln at that point).

And it's even worse, since either one of them would need a navy to hit back at you. Vague promises don't cost any hammers, but naval units do.

[Mardoc]

Yeah, I guess that's true. The only way the defense pact means something, I probably would have had to be afraid of dogpile regardless.

Anyway, Algaculture is one turn away. Which means it's time to reevaluate the tech path. In particular, I'm back to debating if Archeology is worth going for next; we have no land Formers, no need for the Alien Artifact within our borders for a while, and no Monolith within our borders yet.

On the other hand, we could definitely benefit from the next tech up, Centauri Empathy. Not too likely we'd get there first and found Voice of Planet, although it'd be nice if we were that lucky. But we still could use it, and definitely could use Empath Song, to help defend against Isles and maybe capture some. Empath guilds would be handy, too, to start working some Empaths to bulb our way up the Planet line.

But, if we choose to delay Planet-hugging, there are several techs that would be really handy. Doctrine: Initiative, to enable Mining Platforms and several military units. Industrial Automation to unlock a Planned economy. Maybe even Pressure Dome to found the Ascetic Virtues and build Marines.

I think on balance it's still most valuable to us to go up the Planet line to Empathy. We need to make nice with Planet if we're going to REX, and we need our hands on those excellent naval units, the Isles of the Deep. But I'm willing to listen to arguments.

[Mardoc]

First things first:


:2dance::2dance:

I'm planning on city1's site. Don't see anything more urgent.

And I think we'll stick with Archeology to Centauri Empathy. Mostly because we've been fighting with Planet already, we need to do the research anyway to keep it happy and gain the upper hand. I think the only hammer-efficient way to own the sea is to capture Isles and use them for our defense.

Partly because, well, look at how much one tech helped our score! That means no one else on the scoreboard has gotten a tech yet. So we might actually manage to found Voice of Planet ourselves, if we go for it now. Get the Concordat, and we ought to be able to keep Planet happy almost without regard to how much we grow or build Mining Platforms.

And finally, because the only other techs that are really attractive are very expensive right now. Doctrine: Initiative is more than 600 beakers, same for Pressure Dome. Archeology is only ~150 beakers, and Empathy is about 300, so we can actually see the benefits to those in a reasonable timeframe. Just need to get our expansion going so our tech rate continues upward.

State of the exploration:

In the west, we've found Yang and Maniac and Sareln. No awesome sites to settle, but lots of targets. And of course the oceans over here are worth setting sooner or later - that bay between Yang and Maniac looks especially nice, but Biodomed Kelp and Mining Platforms ought to make even bare ocean cities worth it. Plus having bases in the area will make military adventures easier. Just not worth the stretch yet, especially given our other options.


What is urgent? The south, and the east. What's in the south? Nice resources, nice bonuses, lots of nice city sites. Mostly this area is awesome because of the dense packed Energy, Nutrient, and Mineral bonuses, rather than the resources - which means we can settle it as soon as we have the pods and garrisons, don't need to wait for any tech.


To the east, we've less scouted. In general, it's looking like even nicer resources, but less convenient city sites. If you've got some time, Bigger and HK, I'd appreciate your thoughts on how to dotmap this. In particular, I want the to hook up all the resources shown, since these are all resources we can use now or soon with techs we want anyway, and I haven't seen other convenient sources for most. I just don't see a good way to extend our dotmap and grab them with cities that will be solid themselves. Especially because it's mostly coastal, so food will be more of a trick, even with the ability to plant Kelp.

The logistics for this area are also a challenge, at least until we get the Monolith Island and some of the South Sea settled. I'm thinking this area will be medium priority, worth settling towards, but not worth leapfrogging toward.


Finally, one last topic to consider:

Congratulations with researching Algaculture, Mardoc! In the purely hypothetical situation your next goal research goal is Pressure Dome and you found the Ascetic Virtues, would you be willing to sign open borders with me and spread the religion to one of my bases?

What religion do we want? Is is worth trying for more than one? Non-state religions provide unhappiness. But your state religion is worth a happy in every colony, plus other bonuses

Ascetic Virtues does go well with a REX gameplan, as it provides food in every base that has it, and energy in the Shrine. Extra food = faster colony pod construction, and the ability to do more with tight-packed bases. Final bonus - if we take the religion, then everyone else has slightly less reason to research this and enable the building of sea bases. Pressure Dome is a useful tech anyway - it provides Marines, who have seriously large bonuses to defense at sea, Pressure Domes for free specialists (at the cost of an unhappy face), and unlocks that Hydrothermal Vent.

Voice of Planet is handy for keeping Planet happy, and not a lot more. Religion provides planet-happiness, Shrine provides planet-happiness. Of course, planet-happiness is vital for both keeping the number of boats needed to a minimum, and for allowing us to control Isles. Centauri Meditation is also useful on its own, particularly for Empath Song to capture Isles with, but the path to it also unlocks a bunch of Planet resources and the Empath Guild.

Homo Superior is an odd duck. Provides GPP points, I think without any flavor, and Energy from the Shrine. Personally I think I'd rather have the food from Ascetic Virtues - we can always use it to run a specialist if it's GPP we want, but it's flexible and can be used for other things. Memetics...is useful, sure, but much more so for a land empire than a sea one. Genites, Research Hospital, the Knowledge civic, all useful things, but not as urgent for us as Planet and Sea techs.

Edenism - we probably don't want. Provides culture. But we intend to stay on Planet's good side anyway, which will grant us free culture. We're not Believers, there's no inherent need for culture on our side. Terraforming is nigh-useless for a civ wanting to make nice with Planet, as it unlocks the Terraformed civic, forest camo, Parks.

First thought on my part was the Voice of Planet, but Maniac's making me reevaluate. Maybe we do want the Ascetic Virtues instead after all. Or in addition - build the Concordat for Planet-happy, but don't spread it around, spread Ascetic Virtues instead. Of course the second question is - does Maniac really believe Ascetic Virtues are good, or is he trying to trick us? I think his reply to my diplo post may be enlightening - if he's willing to pay for a missionary, then he honestly believes the religion is worth having for itself.

Also, a question for lurkers, if there are any knowledgeable ones around. Do the benefits from religions stack? I know you get one for each non-state religion in a base - but that might be a tradeoff worth making in some cases for the extra bonuses, if we get them. In particular I'd like to consider both Voice of Planet and Asceticism, if they stack - bonus food and bonus planet-happy both go well with REXing.

[Bigger]

were 45 turns in and we are the first to discover a tech? wow, quite a different pace than civ 4 (AC was often slow to the first few techs if you were miriam or yang, but not that slow!).

[Mardoc]

were 45 turns in and we are the first to discover a tech? wow, quite a different pace than civ 4 (AC was often slow to the first few techs if you were miriam or yang, but not that slow!).

Well - we did start on T33 due to the era, this is only the 12th turn played . And we have been #1 in GNP for basically the whole time, the expansion level techs are expensive compared to starting in Arrival.

And we're only first of the civs we know about, it's possible someone in the fog has discovered something already. That's realistically the biggest threat to steal a religion from under us, if Dierdre has been going straight for Centauri Meditation herself.

[Mardoc]

Had a second turn almost before I finished documenting the first! Not much to report this time, though, just started Archeology and continued growing. And sent the colony pod off with an escort and a sea former. Assuming no worms within 4 tiles, we'll have base #3 next turn.

I want to build too many things - more gun foils, and a land former, and colony pods, and health buildings and happiness buildings and and and. At least Dreadnought grew, so it's now able to work the planet pearls and a tile of Trench. Getting the Reef hooked up will help, too, as it provides health.

[HidingKneel]

And I think we'll stick with Archeology to Centauri Empathy. Mostly because we've been fighting with Planet already, we need to do the research anyway to keep it happy and gain the upper hand. I think the only hammer-efficient way to own the sea is to capture Isles and use them for our defense.

Makes sense to me. The only thing I'd consider prioritizing over that would be the tech that unlocks the Planned civic. But since you're planning to grow horizontally, that seems like a lower priority.

To the east, we've less scouted. In general, it's looking like even nicer resources, but less convenient city sites. If you've got some time, Bigger and HK, I'd appreciate your thoughts on how to dotmap this. In particular, I want the to hook up all the resources shown, since these are all resources we can use now or soon with techs we want anyway, and I haven't seen other convenient sources for most. I just don't see a good way to extend our dotmap and grab them with cities that will be solid themselves. Especially because it's mostly coastal, so food will be more of a trick, even with the ability to plant Kelp.

I see the issue. I like the one spot you've designated already. The other resources you're talking about are SE of that, and there's still a bit of fog in that direction. I think some more exploration is in order (and you ought to have plenty of time for that).

Finally, one last topic to consider:

What religion do we want? Is is worth trying for more than one? Non-state religions provide unhappiness. But your state religion is worth a happy in every colony, plus other bonuses

My inclination is Voice of Planet. That's mostly due to flavor considerations, since I don't really know the mechanics well enough to do a cost-benefit analysis. Plus Bob was making the argument Sven is underpowered because he has so much trouble defending against the native life, so anything that helps with that might be worth prioritizing.

[Mardoc]

Maniac's reply in the diplo thread is uninspiring. Can't decide if he just thought I was being greedy, or if he really believes that 26 hammers is worth +1 energy/turn starting in a few turns. He's wrong if so, and here's my reasoning:

Rule of thumb - if a project doesn't pay back in 20 turns in civ, it's not worth doing. Obviously you'd prefer even faster paybacks. Build energy, we've already established to be 2 energy/mineral. 26 hammers into a missionary is therefore 52 energy sacrificed, to gain 1 energy/turn. 52 turn payback is nowhere near where you need to be!

Edit: A couple comparisons, too: 26 hammers can buy you a Network Node, granting 2 bpt and a specialist slot. 26 hammers can buy you a Bio Lab, granting 1-2 food/turn and 2 planet happy. Or, um - 26 hammers can buy you a missionary in your own lands, granting, for Asceticism, 1 happy, 1 food/turn, and 1 energy/turn. It's the last one that makes missionaries a pain to balance - how do you make spreading religion internally an interesting choice, and keep external spread also interesting and reasonable?

Anyway, another day, another turn.

I really do like these splash screens. Let's hope it's prophetic!


In the west, we've discovered a vast expanse of ocean.


Looks like Sian got a tech. Wonder what it was?

And closer to home, we've got the one downside of the city3 location - it's got so much fungus that it's way unhealthy at the start. Still, getting the Coral hooked up and a Biology Lab built ought to allow Blockade to be a solid city. Of course, this also means it's a big boost to our Planet rating. At this rate, we shouldn't have much trouble with our Psi potential for capturing Isles; it's just a matter of getting the tech and the units in place.

[Mardoc]

Second turn of the day (man, I'll never get tired of writing that ):

Not much to report. Finished a BioLab, and our first Kelp farm, started Dreadnought on a Gun Foil and growth (working the Kelp instead of the Trench). Planning to leave the Foil unpromoted, hopefully, so it can pick up Empath Song once that's unlocked. Assumes we don't need it between now and then, of course.

Yang got a tech. No other foreign tech discoveries, at least not in the scoreboard. Makes me think we might own the Concordat after all! One more turn to Archeology, at which point it'll be time to consider building a land former and colony pod.

So, since there's nothing more to report, have some brainstorming on plans:

Centauri Meditation next, followed by - well, probably Industrial Automation to unlock Planned. Although it's tempting to skip that and instead head for Autarky (civic totally eliminates distance-to-capital maintenance, and is unlocked at Biofuel, where we want to go anyway). The other biggie at Industrial Automation is Perimeter Defense - aka 'build a bunker'. So I suppose the main question on whether this is skippable becomes how much military help we need.

After that I'm not sure, but my gut says Doctrine: Initiative, followed by Pressure Dome, then Biofuel. All very useful techs for sea bases, and we might pick up a second religion in the process, if we're lucky. Meanwhile, I'm thinking of building a Empath Guild or two to make Transcends - one for the Concordat, and after that to research up the Planet line for us.

Depending on how the REX goes, we might step back and pick up a few of the cheaper techs for infrastructure builds, like Holographics or Social Psych. I don't expect to want to build a lot of infrastructure, though. Not too many options that are better than another base, assuming that we get to Autarky quick enough.

[Bobchillingworth]

Perimeter Defense - aka 'build a bunker'

Perimeter Defenses are way better than just that- they also give a really large city defense boost, and there are very few units which can bombard that down (and for Siege Tanks, taking the bombard promotion means forgoing extra collateral).


Oh also culture