LoD Ironman

[KingOfPain]

I am feeling the itch to create an Ironman just for a diversion now and then (yeah right, as if I can stop when the going gets good ) . This would be my second Ironman in LoD. The first was a barb and only finished NM Act1. I can't remember why exactly I have not played him since, maybe there were too many things going on at the time or maybe somehow LoD Ironman didn't have the right feel to it.

Anyhoo, my question is, what do you think the best class/build would be for a LoD Ironman based on:

1. Safety - reason amount

2. Damage factor - not to have monster melt at your presence, but some hope in hell to deal with the toughest mob/boss even if it takes forever - Since Ironman has to clear the area.

3. Fun Factor - ie able to use a variety of skill and tactics, or even throw more variantism at it

TIA

KoP

[FoxBat]

You already played a barbarian, there isn't any better. You can use the entire shout tree with minimal investment for quite varied gameplay. Not to mention Find Potion is rather good. There's a reason this is my favorite class though.

I guess bow/javazon might be safer but the ammo is probably an issue. Sorceress of course hardly have to worry about equipment breakage though, and if Ember could do it, probably an ironman could.

Doesn't LoD introduce some recipies for repairing items? Or creating arrows? Are the ingrediants common enough that it takes something out of the variant?

[Zed-F]

Arrows can be cubed from crossbow bolts. Plus there's always Magic Arrow if you need something to shoot but have no arrows.

[Dr.Disaster]

In Ironman i see two main problems you always have to deal with: the availablility of mana pots and/or mana regen rate AND limited Identify scrolls/tomes. A successfull Ironman char would therefore be one of low mana usage while not depending on gear. So my suggestions are:

- Skeleton/ClayGoly Necro. The AI curses guarantee fun!

- Summon/Shockwave Druid

- MagicArrow/GuidedArrow/Decoy Amazon. These skills need very little mana once build up. Together with Edge bow, Valkyrie and Merc it takes a real horde to stop her.

- BladeFury/PsychoHammer/CloakOfShadows/MindBlast Assassin. If you can keep the mana pots coming also other trap skills come to mind.

- Fire Bolt/Ice Bolt/Charged Bolt Sorcy with high level Warmth and maxed synergies. Sorcies level 1 skills can deal out pretty much damage when pushed to a high level while the required mana remains low.

- Warcry/Berserk Barb. At high skill level Warcry mana requirement will become a real problem so FindPotion is a must have!

The only class i don't see fit for Ironman is the Paladin. With his melee skills safety is a problem while his ranged skills BlessedHammer and FistOfTheHeavens require a lot of mana.

Dr. Disaster

[Zyr]

- MagicArrow/GuidedArrow/Decoy Amazon. These skills need very little mana once build up. Together with Edge bow, Valkyrie and Merc it takes a real horde to stop her.

If I were told that my life depended upon soloing an IM char to Guardian, this is the one I'd pick.

The only class i don't see fit for Ironman is the Paladin. With his melee skills safety is a problem while his ranged skills BlessedHammer and FistOfTheHeavens require a lot of mana.

I agree it would be tough, but see how far Mentha got with a nood IM Hammerdin.

[KingOfPain]

Nice work there with Mentha.

Then there is no choice but to go naked. I think I know a build that might be able to pull it off too
*goes to check his account, fingers crossed and hopes the character is still on good terms with bnet*

KoP

[Dr.Disaster]

I agree it would be tough, but see how far Mentha got with a nood IM Hammerdin.

Defensive auras help to self-sustain a paly while going slow plus repeated use of tp/wp/shrine combos also help a lot to save resources. No doubt a nice accomplishment by Mentha. But is running around several hours to clear a single area the kind of Fun Factor KoP requested?

For the records: A free Ironwolf is only given in classic D2 where mercs can't be resurrected and do not follow between acts. In LoD Aschara does not give out a free Ironwolf merc if the player character already has a merc, alive or dead. To receive a free Ironwolf in LoD the Ironman player would need to avoid the free rogue merc!

Since Mentha got his free rogue i wonder how he ever got a free Ironwolf by following Ironman rules.

[KingOfPain]

Heh, dem accountants I just caught that Raldin part while I was bored at work too. And, skipping Sabrina once she's activated would be a no no. But still a very nice accomplisment and a very enjoyable read.

I have created FireEngineRed again (since the old one is deleted by bnet) in HC mode just to look over her skills progression. I find staring at the toon gives me a better/real sense how it may proceed ;p

But is running around several hours to clear a single area the kind of Fun Factor KoP requested?

I would not have hesitated in the old days, and maybe I might still give it a shot up to the major road block which is after the rogue merc dies; or if I skip taking the rogue and can stand to punch my way to my act 3 free merc. Then I can always turn her into a normal HC variant if it doesn't work out. The merc would not have to live pass FER's 30th birthday either.

FireEngineRed would be a triple challenge character - she would be a Naked Passive (passive skills only) Ironman. For those who have forgotten or not know about FER...

From the old N54 forum "Items are still for Wimps"

[size=2]

Finally found some time to play a round of beta for the first time. Naturally, I am more concerned about how variant play will be affected than I care what the next uber build will be. I will be recreating some of my naked characters over the next few days to see how they stand up in the patch.

First one out the gate is FireEngineRed, a naked Zon. Most of you probably remember Kyoko, aka Okoyk, a semi naked all passive zon variant, who was not only viable in hell but can play a key role in many coop games as well as great fun to play. FER is a completely naked version of Okoyk, all passives and not even charms are allowed.

You might think nakedness is weak, quite naturally... while that is certainly true (minus 80 resist all after Hell Anya quest, for example) they can be quite strong in certain areas. The strength of naked characters, especially true for FER, comes in being naked. Nakedness forces one to play more cautiously and pay more attention to thier surroundings, monster AI, minion AI, as well as coopers AI ;p When monsters have 80-90 percent chance to hit you even when you are clvl 99, and when you are negative 80 resists all - You don't want to get hit. One tends to be more alert and immersed.

IIRC, the same guy who says "Items are for wimps" also says "Vit is for wimps" (then again, he always says "Sleep is for the weak" but that's another story). As standard practice, I don't pump vit on my characters, not even when I have 3-400 stat points saved. I usually only put in enough Vit points to avoid one hit kills, as needed. My general philosophy is that if you build to take damage, you will play to take damage, aka sloppy (reason why you need to pump Vit to begin with). Having said that, however, Vit is the secondary strength for naked characters because you can dump all points to Vit (except a few in Energy for some builds). FER has 1200+ HP at clvl 60 (before BO and or Oak Sage from partners) which allows her to take a lot of hits, if she gets hit at all.

FireEngineRed was already tanking Hell Dury, Meph, Diablo when she was in the 50s then Ancients and Baal after hitting 60. Funny thing is she is my chat character - people I have played with know how slow I type, and I don't usually talk while I am playing to avoid typing deaths. Friends frequently prefix "Don't reply now" when they direct a question at me. ;p Ironically, I have all the time in the world to chat away while playing with such a supposedly weak character.

FER is weak ONLY in killing speed. Don't let the -80 res all and 90% chance to be hit fool you. 50-60% (lvl 10-12) D/A/E WORKS to save her behind against melee and missile attacks when she shows off that she can mix it up with mobs. She has enough HPs to take a few sucker punches and still be able to walk out of most situations. Her beefy maxed Valk (sadly without much, if any, killing power in 1.09, can tank most any mobs and act bosses) together with her lvl 10 decoy (one healthy spammable) lets FER trek anywhere without fear.

As a matter of fact, FER often acts as the lead person where other characters would have many problems such as RoF/CS where her decoy acts as an Early Warning System, and WSK2 where her decoy and valk act as Bomb Squad. That's 1.09.

Version 1.10 FireEngineRed - Created with Nobbie's character set.
- Testing - This was meant to be a quick test. It was more or less a series of repeated Eldritch and Shenk runs plus a few WP partrols in various Acts.
- Clvl - no difference since she uses no attacks to benefit from Clvl AR bonuses
- Stat - Only enough points to Vit for 1200 HP - equivalent to Clvl 60 without quest bonus stat points.
- Skills - D/A/E all at lvl 11. Valk at 20

Wow, Cheap Valk! 44 mana (1.10) vs 101 mana (1.09), now there is no need to put points in Enegy at all. In 1.09 at lvl 60, FER barely has enough mana to cast one valk per globe, and not enough mana to cast for a few clvls if Valk was pumped too early. She can now cast Valk and still have a decent reserve to cast more valks and spam some decoys. FER1.09 needed to collect Mana potions just in case of extra tough bosses.

- Merc - Since I am to lazy to gamble or shop for merc items my rogue merc was only doing 400ish top end damage and was pretty well useless, not even keeping up with monster regen rate in Act5 BF. She was surviving okay as a rogue merc would be, although, the one I had seems to take on a somewhat different AI than I have seen. So to make the tests more focused, I ditched her after the initial run.

- Decoy - Boo! Decoy gets no help this patch. Still makes a healthy spammable at lvl 10 but somewhat short lived due to New and Improved monsters.

- Valk - Nice to see Valk gets random armor also. Now that I have enough mana, I want one with colors to suit my moods Previously in 1.09, Valk is pretty well useless as far as killing power is concerned, but 1.10 Valk is very capable of killing off boss mobs although no uber monster processor by herself.

- Valk with life bonus from lvl 1 decoy (prereq) - Equivalent to 1.09. Original Valk lived through the runs against Eldritch and Shenk with various enchantments including LEB and Fanatism. She can be damaged to around 3/4 life but manages to regen to full health. (Assuming it's regeneration since health replenishes consistently with different valks) With Monster hitting much harder now, she probably survived better than she would have due to unknown bonuses from D/A/E.

- Valk with life bonus from lvl 10 decoy - Unmoving HP bar for most inteneted purposes.

- Penetrate - Valk at lvl 20 seems to have no problem hitting Eldritch/Shenk and co, most every strike registered a hit with out any points in penetrate.

- Critical Strike - Grants Valk CS. Form lack of description, I would assume Valk gets increased chance of doing double the Phy Dmg as the skill is increased.

As I mentioned FER was merc-less, so Valk was the only one doing any damage. She manages to kill Eldritch and Shenk's mob and anything in between. It takes the Valk an avg of 4-5 minutes to process Eldritch and co, single-handedly. That's without synergy bonuses from neither Penetrate nor Critical Strike. This may not sound too impressive for most folks but it is a rather huge boost from 1.09.

Is it worth pumping Penetrate and/or Critical Strike to up grade Valk, even if you have more points to spare than a normal character because you are naked and all passive? And, because your life depends on it? The quick answer is NO. More testing in deeper Act5 and tougher Act bosses is needed before I would draw a finally conclusion. As it stands, against the likes of Eldritch and Shenk, with Penetrate and Critical Strike both maxed at 20 the difference in killing speed is not noticable, not enough for even just a handful of extra points - Valk still processes Eldritch and co in 4-5 minutes. For most if not all other builds, Pene and CS would be wasted points if pumped only for Valk. It is not even worth the points for FER, unless she ends up totally dependent on Valk with no merc, and only if Valk finally lose the balance in later Act5 monsters when she fails to deliever enough damage to negate monster regen.

If it hasn't been confirmed yet, minions DO take on some boss attributes. I have managed to single out and kill a Mana Burn boss leaving its minions alive (not an easy task, btw, for a valk only zon ;p ). Every sucessful hit from them drained mana. However, they did not drain the whole globe, iirc.

FER1.10 herself is still very viable, but slightly more of a (welcomed) challenge. She seems to get hit more often than FER1.09 probably due to increased monster speed. And now that monsters do a lot more damage and hit more often, you'll all have to excuse me if I don't talk as much in game ;p

And a snip from Charis' reply

[/size][size=2]

Yet... it's kinda sad that your valk could take out the entire mob, yet one of my strongest characters couldn't defeat Hell Shenk (Tachyon could not beat regen on his Stone Skin hide... I hadn't adapted yet to 1.10 and shopped for a PMH item yet) This of course lends credence to the idea that items are for wimps.

[/size]
[size=2]
I have no doubt FER [/size][size=2]would have a big chance at Hell Baal[/size][size=2] if she can make it to lvl 30. FER wasn't a fast monster processor by any strecth of the meaning but I enjoyed playing her more than just-taking-up-another-challenge, because she has to constantly monitor monster traffic and move to reposition merc, decoy and valk. It was especially fun when she was called to tank for somewhat normal characters (from Cy, Charis and Shadow) and they keep dying

I am still looking at loopholes before I start palying FER...

KoP



[/size]

[Thenryb]

Does an LoD IM character need to completely clear all areas including caves not needed to complete quests or merely clear the path needed for such completion? Reading the writeup on KoPhantom it appears the latter is the case. As to mercs, is an IM character ever allowed to res one? Again, I would assume not.

[KingOfPain]

All quests have to be done and all WP must be visited, however, areas such as caves are optional. Example, since you must travel the Underground Passage it has to be cleared, but UGP level 2 is optional. If you load a level, it has to be cleared.

That's why I said in the HGL forum those entrance traps are just too brutal for Ironman. Ironman don't have the luxury to choose who they want to fight, or respawn a dungeon for more favorale conditions.

Mercs cannot be res'd

Party is on its own, no use of town NPC's except where required by quests. Players may speak to NPC only while it has an "!" over its head, and then only do the business relating to the quest.

This also close the loophole for a player to hire a new merc when one need to talk to a quest giving slave trader.


KoP