Strategic directions - long-term planning

[kalin]

FP has a lot of forests fwiw. I'd like a wonder there.
Kalin

[Fintourist]

FP has a lot of forests fwiw. I'd like a wonder there.
Kalin

Those could be used for MoM as well, but yes, I agree that FP will get a wonder

[Shoot the Moon]

I would prefer Pyramids to Hanging Gardens, although I suppose we could do both.

With stone, the two wonders have the same cost.

Why do you think the pyramids would be better than the HG? I don't necessarilh disagree, but but i'd like to hear the reasoning on that.

As would I. Also would like to hear an argument for mids (and the galley/settler necessary for the stone) over just expanding on the continent.

[Sullla]

Why would we want the Pyramids?

* We're not running a specialist economy. Fin/Exp demands fast horizontal growth, not vertical growth.

* We're planning on having a lot of cities. Representation happiness won't be too useful here if it only affects a small part of our territory.

* Pyramids is very likely to be targeted by one of the non-Financial teams. Do we want to get caught in another wonder race?

* Pyramids is a very expensive wonder. Less so with stone and Mathematics, but still expansive.

I just don't value the wonder much with our game setup here. Let other teams chase the wonder. We should target Hanging Gardens and Mausoleum, both of which synergize with our tech path and hold strong value for an expansive empire (no pun intended).

[novice]

I don't mean to be confrontational here, but it's just easier to respond to Sullla's post point by point. So why would we want the Pyramids over the Hanging Gardens?

* We're not running a specialist economy. Fin/Exp demands fast horizontal growth, not vertical growth.

Pyramids do not require a specialist economy. They enable Representation, which is IMO a better civic than HR for happiness alone (because it's so good in the short term), and saves us the trouble of teching Monarchy for some time. Late game they enable Police State and Universal Suffrage, whose prerequisite techs it might also be opportune to delay. Also, even a cottage economy needs one or two specialist cities, which will benefit from Representation.

* We're planning on having a lot of cities. Representation happiness won't be too useful here if it only affects a small part of our territory.

I don't follow. +3 happy in our 5 largest cities is just as useful in a large empire as in a small empire. We desperately need happiness. What we don't desperately need right now is larger cities without a corresponding rise in the happy cap.

* Pyramids is very likely to be targeted by one of the non-Financial teams. Do we want to get caught in another wonder race?

This just shows that Pyramids have nice denial value too. Any wonder race carries risk, we're pretty adept at minimizing the risk, though.

* Pyramids is a very expensive wonder. Less so with stone and Mathematics, but still expansive.

It's 250 base hammers with stone. Hanging Gardens is 150 base hammers plus 100 hammers for the Aqueduct. With stone + OR or stone + Forge, HG is slightly cheaper at 214 base hammers vs. 223 base hammers for Pyramids.

I just don't value the wonder much with our game setup here. Let other teams chase the wonder. We should target Hanging Gardens and Mausoleum, both of which synergize with our tech path and hold strong value for an expansive empire (no pun intended).

I also prefer the Mausoleum, to both Hanging Gardens and Pyramids. But I prefer Pyramids over Hanging Gardens. I just don't see the need for the extra population from Hanging Gardens right now, we don't have any problems growing our cities.

Of course, if we settle the stone at a natural pace, we might well have the resources to go for both wonders. But I definitely wouldn't rush to stone for the sake of Hanging Gardens.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

We're FIN. We don't need to grow onto farms and cap our growth with scientists. No 'mids this time. Turn those chops into settlers.

Even HG I'm skeptical about, we'll want to save it after Monarchy to actually make use of the population, and even then I'd only put effort into it if it sync'd up with an aqueduct whip and a chop to finish it with overflow immediately after settling wheat, popping borders and connecting stone. But my main concern is that it'll inflate our score.

[kalin]

I wouldn't worry too much about inflating the score...

I am more curious atm about the debate between sailing + calendar vs. monarchy + OR. Any opinions here?

Kalin

[kjn]

Also remember that HG is in a special race, similar to the Oracle or Liberalism: the longer you delay it, the greater the benefit you can get from it. That's really what decided the Oracle race here: CivPlayers needed to research much less than us to reach their target.

Right now the only team besides us with Math might be Apolyton. No team has Masonry yet (I think). I think Apolyton might very well target the HG (Hammans), but I also think they want to draw the greatest possible benefit from the wonder.

That said, Pyramids and Representation is nice because we get +3 happiness in six (not five) cities for free, and with a nice side benefit (better specialists). With HR, we'd get +1 per city free from the MP, and would need to invest in units for anything more, costing hammers and gold in upkeep.

[kjn]

We have one other long-term decision to make, besides the question of techs and wonders: do we want to use our first GP for an Academy, a Shrine, or a Golden Age?

With a GS first, I think it makes sense to run scientists in HF. We can grow on cottages and then stagnate on scientists, but it will make it harder to get galleys into the water if those are neede.

With a shrine first, we use MM and can run priests now and then.

With a Golden Age first, I don't think we need to do anything special here and can get the GP naturally.

[novice]

Maybe get a GSci from HF just beating a GP from MM, which we then speed up with Obelisk priests for a shrine? Not sure what we'll be doing for civic swaps, though.

Maybe it's easier to get the shrine first, then a golden age, and use caste system during the golden age to produce a great scientist for an academy?