Niccolò Machiavelli's Thread

[zakalwe]

Also, note how they cropped out the corn that their southern city claims. Sneaky.

[pling]

What's in it for us? That border deal just amounts to them settling all along our existing borders while we stop all expansion in their direction. Why should we sign away all that land? I would like a city 1E of ivory, or maybe something in the north instead.

T110 is when our NAP with M3 ends. When does the TEAM NAP end? We should keep them staggered.

T101 for the TEAM NAP.

[plako]

What's in it for us? That border deal just amounts to them settling all along our existing borders while we stop all expansion in their direction. Why should we sign away all that land? I would like a city 1E of ivory, or maybe something in the north instead.

It depends what we want. I would like to see peaceful border at this point and look like a good friend and make M3 look like the bad neighbour. Too ambitious claims won't accomplish this. However we definately should make a counter offer. Especially in the south we could be a bit more ambitious and still be able to secure a NAP and relatively good neighbor status.

What would you say to them?

IMO cities in the middle and north are ok to us especially if we can get more room from the center and maybe move the southernmost city 1-2 tiles west I would be very happy with the border.

[plako]

T101 for the TEAM NAP.

You're right.

[plako]

Chat with HAK. They accepted the deal. They're settling very close to the center. We probably need toask them not to settle any further towards us.

me: hi

hitanykey: heya. I'm back now. was afk

me: ok - np with the scout. Are you ok accepting the deal?

hitanykey: Oh right. Yes, we are. Meant to type up an official email reply (since THH has been busy writing a paper for school this week)

me: ok good - so we've a deal

hitanykey: So I moved the scout NE, which you'll see. And wow, when you said we'd come up to TEAM's borders...I didn't expect it to be right up against yours.
You guys sure are right up against each other

me: Both settled this way yes.

hitanykey: seeing that, I've posted in our forum for us to decide exactly which way we want the scout to go at this point. We might move onto the Deer next and then go up around the western side of the mountains for that North path you mentioned.
Otherwise, we'll keep going East to explore the coast south of TEAM

me: that is ok

hitanykey: right now I'm leaning towards continuing the eastern exploration, but I'll see what THH & Parkin want. Also, figured I'd mention to you...apparently the game mechanics for these trade routes are more complicated than I thought. Just seeing those two cities still doesn't enable trade. So either it's because we don't have coastal visibility all the way to you (we never explored all the coast to your south), or it's because we can't see your capital which is what that river goes up to.
So we get no added benefit from the Open Borders as originally expected.

me: I think no visible trade route is the problem

hitanykey: you mean along the coast? or because we can't see the city that the river goes to? or both?

me: along the coast yes

hitanykey: ok, hopefully that's all it is. maybe sometime in the future we'll get around to making a galley to go clear that fog. but that's a long time from now. probably easier and quicker to make a road between us.

me: Through the center?

hitanykey: yup
and that would give us both trade income.

me: yeah - that would be good

hitanykey: I think you have visibility of that Marble on the Plains right on the small lake to your NW, right?

me: y

hitanykey: The city we are founding next turn is 2N-5W of that tile. So a road between us shouldn't take too long to make once we decide to do so.

me: In principle yes. However our settling efforts are now elsewhere

hitanykey: yeah, I know. Most of the road would have to come from our efforts if that was a decision we wanted in order to get income from trade routes.
and thinking in terms of when a road could even be made...it'd probably be around the time of NAP renewal anyway, since it wouldn't be anytime soon.
we both have too many other more important things for workers to do.

me: yeah - sea is the easier route

hitanykey: I'm guessing you guys are looking to settle that southern and SW area (towards Gillette)? Since you are currently sorta boxed in from the north by TEAM at the moment?

me: yes - Towards Gillette next

[zakalwe]

I would say something like this to Gillette:

Hello to you, close shavers!

First of all, we have enjoyed our years of peace and would like to maintain a peaceful front in the future as well, even if our current agreement is nearing its end. So thanks for taking the lead and bringing a concrete suggestion to the table.

We eventually decided to plant with the gold in the first ring, because we really needed the extra happiness online ASAP. Our dotmap is almost comically sparse, but we're letting form follow function.

About your suggested settlement plan; we're not inclined to sign off on that in its current form, but we'll make a counter-offer that we think is quite reasonable. Just to explain where we're coming from: our previous agreement established a neutral zone that allowed both of us to develop in peace without feeling that we have to rush to make aggressive plants in order to claim our land. Now that agreement is coming to an end, and we have already settled right up to the neutral area, while we note that you have chosen to expand in other directions. So your offer essentially amounts to us halting any further expansion in your direction, while you are given additional time to settle cities all along our border. We don't think that's a fair exchange. To put it crudely: what's in it for us? In an unrestricted settling race, we feel confident that we could beat you to several of those spots.

Of course, such a settling race could be devastating for both of our economies, so there is clear mutual benefit in agreeing on the location of border cities without actually racing to settle them. The two northern city sites would hug our borders nicely (though you would have to fight us culturally for the deer, which could be a losing battle). However, we have been intending to settle a city 1E of the ivory, conflicting with your southern dot. However, we would be willing to make that ivory city our border city in the area. If we manage to secure a second ivory, we would also be willing to gift that to you, should you want/need it.

So in a nutshell, our counter-offer is that you settle the two northern border cities as you suggested, we settle a city 1E of the ivory, and you settle the rest of that western peninsula as you see fit. We hope you'll be happy with this arrangement. If you don't like the shape of those borders for some reason, we might be willing to discuss alternatives where we claim a little more land in the north, instead. We haven't given much thought on NAP duration yet; let's get back to that if/when we are in agreement about the borders.

How do you feel about this?

Best regards,
Tropical Trolls

[plako]

There are good elements in Zakalwe's message. I think we should also state something concerning the areas north from the screenshot. We probably would like to get a city pretty close to center of the map behind the lake.

IMO there is no need to explain ourselves. Better just say that we agree to their suggestion, if we just make an insignificant change to it in the south.

I would also include NAP in the deal T105 would be good, but I need to discuss with M3 before sending a message with NAP in it.

[plako]

My suggestion. If it seems we need to explain ourselves then we could use mostly cut chapters from Zakalwe's message.

Hello to you, close shavers!

First of all, we have enjoyed our years of peace and would like to maintain a peaceful front in the future as well, even if our current agreement is nearing its end. So thanks for taking the lead and bringing a concrete suggestion to the table.

We eventually decided to plant with the gold in the first ring, because we really needed the extra happiness online ASAP. Our dotmap is almost comically sparse, but we're letting form follow function.

About your suggested settlement plan. It looks good although we'd like to suggest a minor alteration to it. We would like to settle a city 1E of the ivory, conflicting with your southern dot. In the north you've probably seen the horses close to the middle of the map between the lakes. We would like to settle a city on that column of tiles probably 1S from the horses.

So in a nutshell, our counter-offer is that you settle the two northern border cities as you suggested, we settle a city 1E of the ivory and the horses column in the north, and you settle the rest of that western peninsula as you see fit. We hope you'll be happy with this arrangement. If you don't like the shape of those borders, we are willing to discuss alternatives. We haven't given much thought on NAP duration yet; let's get to it when we are in agreement about the borders. Tentatively something close to T100 sounds alright.

How do you feel about this?

Best regards,
Tropical Trolls

[zakalwe]

That central horse city is way up north past their screenshot, though. I think we should just mention that as an aside.

Here's a picture of that area, for reference:




So how about this (cutting some more redundant fluff, as well):

Hello to you, close shavers!

First of all, we have enjoyed our years of peace and would like to maintain a peaceful front in the future as well, even if our current agreement is nearing its end. So thanks for taking the lead and bringing a concrete suggestion to the table.

We eventually decided to plant with the gold in the first ring, because we really needed the extra happiness online ASAP. Our dotmap is almost comically sparse, but we're letting form follow function.

About your suggested settlement plan. It would be acceptable to us with a minor change in the south. We would like to settle a city 1E of the ivory, conflicting with your southern dot. We are willing to make that our border city in the area, though, so you could settle the rest of that western peninsula as you see fit. Way up in the north, beyond your screenshot, we would also like to settle one more city, 5N of our copper mine. We think this is a fair border, and hope you'll be happy with this arrangement. We haven't given much thought on NAP duration yet; let's get to that when we are in agreement about the borders. Tentatively something close to T100 sounds alright.

How do you feel about this?

Best regards,
Tropical Trolls

[pling]

Do they know where Bloody Mary is for sure? Possibly better to give directions from the Copper tile?