Brainstorming Challenges.

[WarBlade]

Energy was not really a problem for me... unless QZ was up. I suspect most of us had similar problems with it -- at least the non-adrenal-based characters, and especially our healers -- which is why I was highlighting it.

Oddly enough my energy based Warrior set up had little trouble with it. I generally wasn't aware of it until someone pinged it.

As a suggestion we might have to consider building to fight through it rather than get it down ASAP. We'll be gunning for it anyway, but just to be safe we could tweak builds a little and try a practice run through City of Torc'qua to test it.

I was too tired to be fully cognizant of what was going on, but Shadow Smash was a real problem from a healers perspective. That is usually what got people (including myself) killed. Part of the damage is armor-ignoring which sucks, but part of it was also that we were getting too spread out trying to avoid mallyx' teleporting antics, and thus getting outside para shout range. This was more pronounced when we scrambled to try and get QZ down. I'm not sure how much tryptophan was on mallyx but, it looked like our warriors had a hard time catching up to him without a speed boost.

Is it too late to suggest Death's Charge and Riposte again?

Although its none of the above, some AoE is also a viable idea for downing groups other than mallyx, albeit they werent' always so nicely cramped. A spinter weapon, cyclone axe, or whirlwind might be useful, though our warriors can comment better on enemy positioning.

I disagree on bringing AoE because it will likely increase the number of Enraged DoA monsters running around.

At the risk of frustrating hawk even more, I think we should turn her 4 pips into a restoration healer.

That was one of my thoughts as well...
- D/Rt Healer, protector.
- D/E Warder
- D/P Shouter, spear-thrower

I wonder how Defiant was Xinrae + Soothing Memories would run? I was experimenting with Attuned was Songkai and Soothing Memories with Ebon Vanguard Battle Standard of Wisdom a few days ago and aside from the Songkai there could be a mix there that would be quite resisant to Quickening Zepher...

[FoxBat]

Is it too late to suggest Death's Charge and Riposte again?

The one drawback with Death's Charge is giving up the hard rez, which we seem to need. I'd probably pick Return anyway due to the lower recharge, and allies being about as far away as Mallyx himself.

Riposte really depends on the build. If xyn has Dslash spam going, then he can put riposte up every other hit, which is bound to deflect alot of smashes. For sej it's a bit harder due to slower adren build; ideally he might be able to react to the smash when its activated under trypto, but the wars have to let us know how feasible that is given the speed. An alternative for him could be Shield Bash if the disable part does anything (not sure it does), as it only blocks skills, and can therefore be used beforehand. Of course we could always try two dragon slashers...

[WarBlade]

Bad news... I can't clear my schedule for Slaughtered-By-Mallyx day. I can participate for about one, maybe two attempts if we get off the ground quickly, but that's about it. I'll probably be free the following day.

[Seijin]

I don't know if conditions were a big problem for our healers but this is something I use when I go on CoF runs with my warrior.

W/P
Spear Mastery: 12
Strength: 12 (can be adjusted to use other attributes)

1 Spear of redemption
2 Holy Spear
3 Spear of Fury (r5)
4 Cautery Signet (E)
5 Breath of the Great Dwarf (r10)
6 "For Great Justice"
7 - open
8 - open

The open slots are usually filled by Light of Deldrimor and any other skill in want to bring.

I can put anything in the open slots. Most likely a hard res, so Signet of return would take one slot. The other could be Hexbreaker Aria for added hex removal. Or I could move some points over to Command and take "Never Surrender" or "Go for the Eyes!". Or more damage like Asuran Scan. Or if someone can take burning off of me, i can replace Breath of the Great Dwarf with another skill.

For the initial mobs I can hunt down the QZ pretty fast and get rid of them plus add some condition removal support, minor healing, and possibly hex removal. My damage output should also be decent, but probably not as high as if I were at melee.

[FoxBat]

If we're trying the trypto thing, I think we want at least 2 warriors for mallyx to punt around- redundancy in case one trypto is messed up, and better them then our backline. While there is mega condition spam, we managed with just two healers, so three should hold that nicely while retaining more usefulness vs mallyx.

But I do think trading DPS for defense/utility is the right track - we were damanging mallyx plenty fast, but couldn't hold defensively. Killing him faster just spawns more mobs which isn't the best of ideas. (What sucks more than failing the mission? Succeeding but dying before getting to the chest. ) So as mentioned earlier, this is more focused on killing/disabling mobs, and providing more defense vs mallyx.

Newer thoughts here

Everyone in this party is contributing some kind of utility. The key elite is Infuriating Heat, which powers the 4 adrenal characters. It allows the spear warrior to perma-maintain SY with flail, freeing up the paragon to bring Defensive Anthem, more chants, and a different secondary. The d-slasher can also alternate Sun and Moon + Dslash endlessly without FGJ. Both warriors can put up parry every other hit for protection against shadow smash. While holy spear is on the SYer, they need to generally pour their adrenaline into just SY and flail, but they can use that skill to quickly nail QZ.

Asuran scan is both good damage vs mobs and a trigger for hexbreaker aria, which should help us down the spawns faster. In addition to Defensive Anthem, there are two 15-sec Wards vs Melee, as well as Protector's Defense on the spearchucker. The paragon picks up Power Return both for generally screwing up casters, but more importantly to shut down Unyielding Anguish, which frees up the ranger to recast spirits or use his formidible damage/interrupts against spawns. "Charge" and "Fall back!" chained provide unstrippable run buffs for warriors to catch mallyx (or whatever else), as well as players kiting from a summon shadows or people returning from a mallyx smash. Brace Yourself! is possible for preventing the smash KD (that thing is at least 3-4 seconds...)

I actually don't feel we were THAT far on that attempt, so this should do it. Of course the later spawns could be absolutely insane...

[WarBlade]

That spear build will be a complete mess for me.

Protector's Defence + spears = a tight pack defensive strategy on a Warrior avoiding the clump. I don't think that's a good idea.

Save Yourselves on the Holy Spearman who is mobile and running wide to hunt Quickening Zepher means no Save Yourselves or no Zepher, rather than the more desirable "Save Yourselves always on and Zepher dead." If we have a primary Zepher killer that person needs to be a different person than the one generating any party protection cover.

10e Battle Standard probably effecting one or two of the party at most because of where I'm likely to be positioned (assuming I have the energy to cast it).

I could go on, but as far as I can see that build proposal gimps me in too many ways to be useful for much of anything. I could adopt individual ideas from it though.


Other notes:

1.) "Finish Him!" was providing an essential coffin nail for Margonite Anur Ki and Heart Tormenter. Is also highly valuable to getting double "Enraged" Dementia Titans off the stage fast. We need it. Best place I think is for me to hang onto it if I hang on to spear throwing.

2.) I don't see an instant kill spirit remover. I took a few shots at Mallyx's spirits and I think I can nail one in under a minute. Those things were surprisingly tough.

3.) What's the Rez strategy? The build looks weak for getting people back up. I'd be disappointed if Seijin had to Death Pact Wyrm only to have Wyrm go down again in seconds.

[FoxBat]

Protector's Defence + spears = a tight pack defensive strategy on a Warrior avoiding the clump. I don't think that's a good idea.

The build basically assumes a defenseball for the midline/casters vs mallyx with the wards already. He can only attempt to punt one of us at a time, and it's not going to work well with 85%+ blocking. Albeit it does depend on everyone else balling around you to get the shout, and adjacent may just be too close. In its defense they only have to ball to get hit by the shout, then they can go wherever they want as long as you stay put. It can also be used in response to summoning shadows for good coverage.

Save Yourselves on the Holy Spearman who is mobile and running wide

Fair enough. Mucco could eat the spirits (sometimes he did), but I'm guessing he was often too busy hanging back healing. With a second healer we might get away with sending him in. Otherwise, gaze of fury on the ranger is our next best bet.

I don't have a particular idea for that slot now because the energy and adren are already tied up. Maybe a res sig we hope not to need is best, else some on-demand adrenal deep wound in merciless spear.

10e Battle Standard probably effecting one or two of the party at most because of where I'm likely to be positioned (assuming I have the energy to cast it).

Should hit three of the party members easily: most of our damagers are in the midline now, and can afford to stay put in a ward more than the front can. You don't want to be all that far from them anyway or your shout won't cover them, especially if someone starts kiting one way or the other. It would be better on Zed who could sometimes catch midline+front, but I doubt he has the skill or a significant rank. Wyrm doesn't really have the room.

I could go on, but as far as I can see that build proposal gimps me in too many ways to be useful for much of anything.

Lets make it simple then. You replace the warrior's endurance guy with any frontliner as long as it has tryptophan, parry, and a rez. Seijin was interested in running support spear anyway, maybe he's willing to fully discuss a build before trashing it, or at least posting better alternatives/improvements.

As wyrm has said of the imbagon, all they basically do is SY spam. Anything else you try to tack on, such as adrenaline skills or skills that keep you from attacking, threatens the SY flow. That greatly constrains paragon choices, and for leadership-less warriors even more so.

It's possible to juggle skills between the paragon and spear to get the Para back to SY as I've just started in the new below section, but the para has a better rez and command spec for GFTE, and ideally you don't want the SY spammer to time out to rez. Plus we either need another interrupter so Zed can make this Infuriating strategy work, or else mucco needs to be good at eating souls.

2.) I don't see an instant kill spirit remover.

Consume Soul is still around.

3.) What's the Rez strategy? The build looks weak for getting people back up. I'd be disappointed if Seijin had to Death Pact Wyrm only to have Wyrm go down again in seconds.

I'm assuming one reason people wern't fleshing so much is that the frontline doesnt' want to get nailed with low HP when a bunch of mobs are on them. Death pact gets around that, but it's true that it is risky. Flesh is fine if people can/will actually use it: more input would help as to why it seemed Zed was the only person rezzing.

Signet of Return on warriors by compare isn't, not without "We Shall Return!" to boost the health/energy to something reasonable. We could give up ward on Xyn for another res, or else throw in a non-recharging sig, but that's about it. The combat monk rez are pretty bad, only other place is maybe dropping an urn from one of the rits, now that we have three healers - but that rit likely will not be able to use it if the dead person is another healer.

[WarBlade]

The build basically assumes a defenseball for the midline/casters vs mallyx with the wards already.

Unlikely. I'm mentally playing out how I'd run the revised build and I predict that it's not so much a mid line defence as an emergency response to Summoning Shadows. A 10 second duration with a 30 second recharge means I'm probably going to have to hold this one back until its really needed.

As wyrm has said of the imbagon, all they basically do is SY spam. Anything else you try to tack on, such as adrenaline skills or skills that keep you from attacking, threatens the SY flow. That greatly constrains paragon choices, and for leadership-less warriors even more so.

That's the part of this build that continues to puzzle me. My character has the Strength attribute to help make some damage happen and Wyrm has Leadership to make something of the shouts and more importantly a fairly static position in the middle ensuring the effectiveness of other shouts. The Warrior and Paragon part of the build where we were at in the weekend was working really well I thought. So I'm left thinking we're planning on fixing something that didn't look very broken to me.

[Xyngynkynyn]

Well I couldn't always tell if tryptophan signet was working, especially against mallyx. ... Against Mallyx I used it every time it recharged and I was in range. Problem is, right before we wiped, the guy kept smashing me away. But it was up most of the time. Duration is 20s (unless mallyx can cut that in half, although its not a hex or condition) and recharge is 15s.

That pretty much sums up my experience with Tryptophan Signet as well. I had a practice run with WB in the City while the rest of you were forming up. I was pretty much able to apply it consistently to the Margonites. My stats have it at 38% speed reduction for 20 seconds but I couldn't discern any noticeable effect on the overall fight; probably because I was more focused on spamming SY, FGJ and Tryptophan every chance I get than actually evaluating its impact.

Anyway; like Seijin, I'm pretty sure I was able to keep it up most of the time even though I too was getting smashed all over the place. So between the 2 of us, I'm pretty comfortable in assuming it was in effect on him 95+% of the time barring any unknown factors such as Mallyx cutting down its duration in half.

As to what happened in the end, for me, it fell apart when Fox died. As soon as I saw he was down, I started Flesh of My Flesh and immediately attempted to recast it every time I was interrupted. Unfortunately, I was consistently interrupted 3 times in a row; twice by Shadow Smash, and died while on my fourth attempt. I'm glad the revised DSlash build removed it because I feel I was being singled out by Mallyx whenever I tried to rez Fox. Also, prior to Mallyx's room, I have attempted to rez others as soon as I see them drop but others have consistently beat me to it (probably Zedf by Fox's account).

Is there an urgent need for an interrupt for Mallyx? From what I can find, it's supposed to be used against Unyielding Anguish but if that's all then I say it isn't worth it since Mucco did a bang up job in dealing with the spirits/"Souls". Also. it only rezzes one spirit and it has a 30 second recharge. Let it be.

I'm not too keen on the ward for me strictly because of the 15e requirement. Factoring in Spirit Shackles, QZ and possible DP and I'm thinking I may not have it up half the time it's needed.

One last factor we need to address is positioning. Mallyx moved around a lot and Seijin and I had to give chase so I believe some of our back-liners fell out of my SY shout range. Do we stay in one spot; thereby maintaining our defensive ball and wait for him to come to us or do we try to keep our defensive ball mobile while chasing him? We can try to surround him therefore impeding his movement. He's rather large so impeding his path should be easy.

[WarBlade]

As to what happened in the end, for me, it fell apart when Fox died. As soon as I saw he was down, I started Flesh of My Flesh and immediately attempted to recast it every time I was interrupted. Unfortunately, I was consistently interrupted 3 times in a row; twice by Shadow Smash, and died while on my fourth attempt. I'm glad the revised DSlash build removed it because I feel I was being singled out by Mallyx whenever I tried to rez Fox. Also, prior to Mallyx's room, I have attempted to rez others as soon as I see them drop but others have consistently beat me to it (probably Zedf by Fox's account).

"Twice by Shadow Smash." Yeah, that remains the one major hole in last week's front line that I'd be advocating change on. Block based defences.

Is there an urgent need for an interrupt for Mallyx? From what I can find, it's supposed to be used against Unyielding Anguish but if that's all then I say it isn't worth it since Mucco did a bang up job in dealing with the spirits/"Souls". Also. it only rezzes one spirit and it has a 30 second recharge. Let it be.

I agree. The new build strategy looks problematic, especially around what Zed and I will be doing. Zed, because he's set up to run some risky gambles and me because I'm being asked to run a key defensive utility totally reliant on one of them.

What I think we should try is leave me in DPS mode and rewrite Zed's role a little. I think the way to go would be to have Zed bring the spirit munching skill that Mucco demonstrated is the only viable option for Mallyx's spirits. Leave Distracting Shot equipped as further insurance though, because there are always uses for interrupts, and whatever other tricks a R/Rt can pack in.

I'm not too keen on the ward for me strictly because of the 15e requirement. Factoring in Spirit Shackles, QZ and possible DP and I'm thinking I may not have it up half the time it's needed.

Agreed. We would be well advised to keep away from more gambles... Ward against Melee could be very useful, but if we're planning on bringing it we need to be careful about where and how.

One last factor we need to address is positioning. Mallyx moved around a lot and Seijin and I had to give chase so I believe some of our back-liners fell out of my SY shout range. Do we stay in one spot; thereby maintaining our defensive ball and wait for him to come to us or do we try to keep our defensive ball mobile while chasing him? We can try to surround him therefore impeding his movement. He's rather large so impeding his path should be easy.

Surrounding for a body block will probably only last for as long as we get teleported around the place and then leave people running back to reach him. He'd certainly have a smorgasbord of squishie targets to choose from. Interesting idea, but I don't know that it would be effective.




Edit: D'oh! Fox looks to have altered the build again... This post was more related to the earlier version.