[SPOILERS] PB1- Mardoc buys a can of paint for Thoth and Ellimist

[Mardoc]

Um. The Calabim are in a GA. So no anarchy. Only issue is happy and we'll have 2nd whales t112 and second Ivory t111. So Nhood turn 112?

Details...

Well, IIRC, Nationhood is worth a happy for Training Yards. Which we've built all over the place for Vamp production. So we'd only lose 1 happy from revolting - and yes, it's probably worth it for that.

Think I agree with Ellimist, it's worth adding Overcouncil at the same time. I realize that prevents us from potentially getting the UC sage, but I figure it's at least 20t until that's possible. Still needs another election to create a head (which is probably plako), and then another after that for the sage, if they actually do that first. Be a bit of a problem if they decide they want something else first - gambling ring, maybe?

I think it is worth possibly missing the GC. And I'd like to keep that city (it'll have to be Calabim, the only thane available to pop it out of resistance is Calabim. It gains us a third Ivory (and denies an Ivory to the GnomeClowns) plus access to their road net from a defensible position. And puts us in position to pillage one of their gems sources.

Defensible, only if we can threaten Gibbon et al from outside their range. That's my big worry, don't want to give them a big stack in a vulnerable position.

I'll admit, it would be a very nice forward base, I just worry about having any units that close to them, unless we're on the move.

They won't need floating eye to spot our attack on t113. We'll need to have the cats and most of our stack in Napa that turn. The Adepts arrive t114 and Haste/Blur the stack. Combat workers road 2t towards Saltus then the cats go in. I don't think they'll have enough units in the area to hold the city against what we can throw at them. We'll be able to scout the city safely ahead of time with a WR, so if it turns out they do have a mega stack in Saltus and we can't take the city.....then we'll be quite glad we have a decent stack of our own nearby

What's the point of Haste? It won't help cats any, and we can't be confident without them. Why not do both this and get MilStrat on our previous schedule? I guess it might let our hitters have a CI promo instead of mobility, but you said they're mostly Moroi, so we could Burning Blood them instead. And I suspect they need mobility to get to the theatre anyway.

True, we'd prefer to have Blur, but that's probably only an extra casualty or two - we could build Axes instead, and just accept the casualties.

We won't have Sorcery until what? t130?

Insta Elohim Mages would be very nice, but our main thumpy thumpies are Vamps and Ogres.

We can afford a 1t delay on MS (even if it means missing the GC) if it means we can hit Saltus a turn earlier.

Agreed, mostly. Just not certain that's actually the tradeoff required. Looking at the distances, we can hit Saltus without Haste - and we'd best be able to, since we're relying on Cats to get us decent odds.

[Thoth]

Details...

Mardoc, you're great to have as a teammate.

And now I remember why it is that I've done most of the logistics in games past when we've teamed up together.

Well, IIRC, Nationhood is worth a happy for Training Yards. Which we've built all over the place for Vamp production. So we'd only lose 1 happy from revolting - and yes, it's probably worth it for that.

-1 from revolt and +2 from Whales and Ivory (incoming) so we'll have net +1 happy and +10% mil hammers come t112.

Think I agree with Ellimist, it's worth adding Overcouncil at the same time. I realize that prevents us from potentially getting the UC sage, but I figure it's at least 20t until that's possible. Still needs another election to create a head (which is probably plako), and then another after that for the sage, if they actually do that first. Be a bit of a problem if they decide they want something else first - gambling ring, maybe?

I'm very strongly in disagreement here. The whole point of putting the Calabim into Undercouncil was to try and grab control for our own ends.

The next vote is in a couple of turns (t111? 112?). That's for councilorship.

We either win it or it deadlocks. either is fine.

If we win, then circa t122/123 we get a gs for the Calabim and the Orcs. And we'll have 100% chance of a non gs Orc Gp and a 90+% chance of a non gs Calabim Gp at that point.

And if our demos are looking good right now, just think of what they'll be doing with another double GA after some growth and tile improvements.

Overcouncil would be a better civic for the Calabim, yes. But I'd like council control and another pair of GAs more than the increased efficiency.

We can hold off on the Nationhood revolt until t114 or 115 (we'll be building CPs and the HE t113/114 anyway so no lost hammers). If the vote hangs the undercouncil for 10 more turns, the we might as well grab Overcouncil at the same time.

I'll admit, it would be a very nice forward base, I just worry about having any units that close to them, unless we're on the move.

I'd rather defend from a forward postition in any event. But I think if things go our way we may well be on the move towards the Clown Capital after Saltus.

What's the point of Haste? It won't help cats any, and we can't be confident without them. Why not do both this and get MilStrat on our previous schedule? I guess it might let our hitters have a CI promo instead of mobility, but you said they're mostly Moroi, so we could Burning Blood them instead. And I suspect they need mobility to get to the theatre anyway.

We'll have 4 combat workers available to road up to Saltus. The cats can hit (across the river) into Saltus from Napa so long as we have a road on the grass tile and cultural control t114.

We need haste in order to get all the boots (including the Chariots and WRs) into place on t113. Haste on t114 lets us use c1 melee instead of Mob 1 and it let's our mob 1 melee cross the river without the 40% river crossing penalty. But the main bit is getting the boots in place fast enough.

And we need Haste Adepts on the board in Blue at eot 111 in order to get those boots in place.

True, we'd prefer to have Blur, but that's probably only an extra casualty or two - we could build Axes instead, and just accept the casualties.

Blur is a bonus. The main thing is the body 1 adepts to get the boots in place in time.

But it will be handy. Dance of blades isn't a great buff spell. But it's the buff spell they've got, so it's the buff spell they'll use. And blur hard counters it. So we'll have our hasted gropos where we need them, with fs immunity, our fast movers (4x chars, 4 x wrs) where we need them plus 6-8 moroi with promo in hand, a few assorted bps, moroi and if needs be a pair of mob 1 SoKs. Also Rantine and Hero on a Chariot. We also have another 19 xp Elohim warrior with C3/mob1 (I think) who should pick up xp point 20 defending vs a barb this turn.

And 6 cats.

Timing is crucial here I think. We want to hit them as fast as we can. They know we're heading for Vamps and are preparing. If we can hit them with a city taking stack before Vamps we should certainly do so. And I think we can.

Getting the GC from MS has never been part of our core gameplan, if we don't get it...so what?. But I think we might grab it anyway along with a border city.

The Gnomes just revolted to OO and the Clowns are now in Esus.

Gibbon with a Spellstaff is a fair bit nastier than Gibbon without. If they've got their mana plan set up, they'll be wanting 4 sources of Enchantment mana in Clown hands the turn they build Gibbon plus as much meta as they can muster. Spellstaff, Meta 3 with multiple mana nodes and 9 palace manas = Ugly powerful summoner Djin. That can be backed up with Snowfall. So they may well be gunning for Alteration in order so set that up in time. Body mana would also be very useful to them.

Agreed, mostly. Just not certain that's actually the tradeoff required. Looking at the distances, we can hit Saltus without Haste - and we'd best be able to, since we're relying on Cats to get us decent odds.

As I mentioned above, the Adepts are needed to both get enough regular boots into Napa on t113 and it gives us the extra mobility on our melee units so we'll have more c1 Moroi and fewer m1.

They may very well have a FE scouting the area so they'll see some of our forces in motion as we move t112, I'd like to give them as little warning as possible.

I did some quick and dirty testing. If they can put 20 units into the city we'll damage 18 about 20% and probably get a hit or two in the top defenders (likely a brace of WGs) with the cats. Fewer units means more collateral shared out. We'll have a look into the city on t111 so we'll have a rough idea of what they can defend with.

Our timetable looks like this:

t110: 2 workers complete road to Napa site. Cover at least two units. Occupy the Napa site with 2 g1 Moroi + at least 2 additional units. Settler moves into Eiswine. soks move to 1N of Eiswine. 2 Orc workers in Blue move 4t E. 2 Orc workers NE of Pinot complete a road on the riverside plains cottage. 2xp moroi in Pinot moves to the cottage.
Spend 135g to promote hero to Chariot. Move unnamed 19 (hopefully 20xp ) Elohim warrior from the north towards Gin. I'm not sure if we can get him into Gins cultural boarders on 111 or not. If so he upgrades to chariot t111 for 135, promotes to mob 2 on t112 and moves like a bat out of hell towards Napa.

two orc wrs in OSH move towards napa site unpromoted as do the two orc Chariots in Coors. Both Coors and OSH will finish chariot/WR respectively at eot 11. I think we need to promote the Coors chariots to mob 1 on t112 in order to get them into position to attack on t114. If so it's worth it.

both Pinot and champagne can 1t moroi t110, 111, and 112. Then start CPs Zinfandel builds a 1t catapult t110 and then a ty t111/112. Start ty113. HE started either t14 or t15.

Orcs cancel Marble deal to Elohim and get gifted all our mana.
Calabim tech Kote. Shamans queued in Blue, Straub and guinness. Elohim tech 1/2 of philo and get gifted up to 280 gold (orc and Calabim) or so to cover the upgrades. That leaves us with around 20/30 gold in the kitty. We'll make around 170g empire wide on t110 so we'll have ~200 available t111.

Blue produces 17 base hammers so 19 with MS. We'll need to rush 41 hammers here t111 at a cost of 123 gold.

We'll make another 150+ gold t 111 so we'll some cash left in the kitty. I'm not actually certain if the Orc ga ends at eot 111 or eot 112. There are Markets and suchlike plus city and cottage growth/tile adjustments so I think we should still have a slight surplus after the Orc GA ends. Which is good. Because our military support costs are about to skyrocket.


t111: If we're still in control of the Napa hill, we can step off the hill with a mob 1 bp to get a look into Saltus. Move Napa settler and a bunch more moroi/bps onto the hill. Workers complete Ivory plantation. Orc workers on plains cot near Pinot move 1se and finish up the road. New workers from blue move to PH 1n of Champagne. Moroi in Champagne either moves 2ne to be upgraded to a chariot t 112 or towards Eiswine.

Elohim finish Philo and Calabim start Mil strat.

t112: Found Napa. Move 6 mob 1 cats into Eiswine. Napa builds cultch at 5cpt. We have two Thanes available, but I'd like to keep on on hand as a medic and one to blow Saltus's borders the turn we capture it. The Medic should be in Napa t112, the border thane stays in Eiswine. 2 orc chariots and 2 wolfriders arrive in Eis. 4 orc workers move south. Two Mob 1 body 1 Adepts move into Pinot and cast haste then split up, move 2 more tiles East and one has a haste available. The newb Moroi promotes to Mob 1 and moves 6t towards Eis.

If Elohim beakers can finish MS, they tech it and calabim start Fued. Otherwise calabim beakers will be enough and the Elohim can start Fued. Or Elohim tech MS, Calabim finish it with a lot of unallocated overflow.

End of turn 112 Calabim finish up 2 more moroi in Pinot and Champagne mob 1 + haste just gets them into Napa t114.

T113: we move 6 cats, Thane, 2 uber chariots, 2 mob 1 chariots, 2 2xp chariots and 4 wrs into Napa. We'll have 3/4 unpromoted 2xp moroi either in or moving into the city plus 3 new mob1 moroi, 2 g1 moroi, 2 mob1 Soks plus our current motely assortments of BPs and moroi. Plus Rantine who will have C3/Mob1 and two promos in hand.

t114: Depends what they do when they see a 30 unit stack on their border. They'll probably have been spying via eye as we move our pieces but we do have a couple of distractions we can use in the meantime.

A mob 2 spider close to a border node. and a wolf rider in position to re-pillage the rice. We'll have to expose both units and the WR is almost certainly dead.

But if we sting them t12 with the wolf and the spider, they may direct their attention elsewhere for a turn.

Maybe not, but it's worth a try. Depending on how many and what units they can have in the city t114 they may or may not choose to try and hold the city very hard. I think we can take a 20 unit stack down, so long as there aren't too many high str top defenders.

And if they run, we'll have 10 mounted units on hand to maybe chase them down in the open.

[Thoth]

random thoughts:

Gibbons summons are illusions.

I think we want empy/phood and av before we hit IW (sthg like: Kote/philo/ms/feud/Hawks/empy (or av)/phood/av(empy)/smelting/iw

Empy priests hard counter gibbons summons and Ritualist would mean we don't need as many cats.

[Mardoc]

Alright, I think I'm on board with the further delay of MilStrat. Even if we do lose the GComm, if we're invading them with a big stack they won't be able to use him for adept training anyway. I don't worry so much about them having him if he's just making warriors with one extra promo . Or, for that matter, if they're pumping out 8 XP adepts instead of something that might stop the invasion.

On the Undercouncil question - isn't it 2 votes to 3, regardless? I don't see how 1 vote to 3 is any worse. We should probably also check the detail () of whether the resolution works as expected given teams and AW. I agree that another golden age would be super awesome, I'm just nervous about relying on the UC when I don't think we can even control it.

Although...hmm....can't GCommanders be half a golden age, too? Calabim may be likely to pop a non-Sage, but I can guarantee they won't pop a Commander. That may be a better use than insta-Mages anyway, given that our whole gameplan considers mages a nice bonus. Ideally we're into a winning position before we ever research Sorcery.

Gibbons summons are illusions.

I think we want empy/phood and av before we hit IW (sthg like: Kote/philo/ms/feud/Hawks/empy (or av)/phood/av(empy)/smelting/iw

Empy priests hard counter gibbons summons and Ritualist would mean we don't need as many cats.

Agreed with AV. As long as we're on the offense, collateral is much more useful than high Str. And I'd much rather use Ritualists than cats, yes (although don't forget we soon have the option of Spectres). Although, come to think, Orcs are the right civ to mass produce ritualists with anyway, that's a good use of their hammers.

Mostly disagree with Empy. Because I think we won't be attacking Gibbon's summons, we'll be being attacked. We can't dispel a summon between him casting the spell and being hit. Yes, they'd make it easier to take a stack being covered by Gibbon summons, but I just don't see that happening a lot. Besides, they took Ice mana for a reason. I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of summons from Gibbon in any event, we'll be seeing Snowfalls instead. Which calls for fast units or Cold Resist units, more than it calls for Dispel Illusion.

Also, given the choice, I'd rather have Ritualists. We can't do too many things at one time, we only have so many hammers and can only be in one religion at a time/civ. Sure, we could make non-Spiritual priests, but that seems like a waste (and besides, only Elohim have hammers that aren't already planned to go elsewhere). Ritualists are good against everyone, Dispel Illusion is only good against Gibbon. I expect to be seeing Hemah, too, from this team...

Obviously we'll be seeing their tactics by the time either is even an option, though. So if they do use Gibbon for defense rather than offense, we can switch. And Rathas are always useful, regardless of anything else.

[mackoti]

Me likes all this cunning plans.

[Qgqqqqq]

I'd recommend checking the Secret Codes thing, as I was unable to get the GS when the opponents voted against it (I tested it with 3 vs. 3 AW, with everyone bonked into UC from T1. We won the council vote (I think either the human or the first in turn order automatically wins ties.) however were unable to win SC when they voted against it (it still passed, we just didn't get the GS). Despite this, when we did the Nightwatch thing they voted for it and it passed, so I suspect it is something to do with how SC works in a team game.

I also like the sound of the attacks

[Thoth]

Alright, I think I'm on board with the further delay of MilStrat. Even if we do lose the GComm, if we're invading them with a big stack they won't be able to use him for adept training anyway. I don't worry so much about them having him if he's just making warriors with one extra promo . Or, for that matter, if they're pumping out 8 XP adepts instead of something that might stop the invasion.

On the Undercouncil question - isn't it 2 votes to 3, regardless? I don't see how 1 vote to 3 is any worse. We should probably also check the detail ()

2 vs 2. Illian's aren't in it (can't join due to Agnostic I think)

of whether the resolution works as expected given teams and AW. I agree that another golden age would be super awesome, I'm just nervous about relying on the UC when I don't think we can even control it.

Although...hmm....can't GCommanders be half a golden age, too? Calabim may be likely to pop a non-Sage, but I can guarantee they won't pop a Commander. That may be a better use than insta-Mages anyway, given that our whole gameplan considers mages a nice bonus. Ideally we're into a winning position before we ever research Sorcery

.

We could use it that way, no rush to decide. Vodka still has some growing + infra to complete before it's pushing out military. And we won't have 8xp units until the Elohim are in Conquest (some turns yet).

Even if we never wind up pushing out instamages, the extra promo on HE built Elohim units would be nice (alt: We build the HE in Whiskey and spam 8xp Barrage II (ie 20% collateral per shot to 6 targets)/Spirit Guild cats.

Gibbons summons are illusions.

I think we want empy/phood and av before we hit IW (sthg like: Kote/philo/ms/feud/Hawks/empy (or av)/phood/av(empy)/smelting/iw

Empy priests hard counter gibbons summons and Ritualist would mean we don't need as many cats.

Agreed with AV. As long as we're on the offense, collateral is much more useful than high Str. And I'd much rather use Ritualists than cats, yes (although don't forget we soon have the option of Spectres). Although, come to think, Orcs are the right civ to mass produce ritualists with anyway, that's a good use of their hammers.[/quote]

AV for Orcs oh yes. Spi Ritualists level up fast even in FFH. In EITB....

Mostly disagree with Empy. Because I think we won't be attacking Gibbon's summons, we'll be being attacked. We can't dispel a summon between him casting the spell and being hit. Yes, they'd make it easier to take a stack being covered by Gibbon summons, but I just don't see that happening a lot. Besides, they took Ice mana for a reason. I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of summons from Gibbon in any event, we'll be seeing Snowfalls instead. Which calls for fast units or Cold Resist units, more than it calls for Dispel Illusion.

Djins are base str 5 (?) with +1 Affinity for each unique mana type available to the civ owning it. illusions heal on defense. We have absolutely nothing that can deal with an Illusory Djin if they're using them (up to 6 at once with a Spellstaff.....I don't want to think about how many with Twincast.

Revalation sucks, except for one thing. It gets rid off Illusions. So we can clear out the summons each turn as needed and if we're using Raider priests.....we can disrupt the buildup ahead of time.

Also: Spellstaff Puppets can summon and then cast Snowfall on the same turn.

We've got few turns yet, but not many.

Also, given the choice, I'd rather have Ritualists. We can't do too many things at one time, we only have so many hammers and can only be in one religion at a time/civ. Sure, we could make non-Spiritual priests, but that seems like a waste (and besides, only Elohim have hammers that aren't already planned to go elsewhere). Ritualists are good against everyone, Dispel Illusion is only good against Gibbon. I expect to be seeing Hemah, too, from this team...

Obviously we'll be seeing their tactics by the time either is even an option, though. So if they do use Gibbon for defense rather than offense, we can switch. And Rathas are always useful, regardless of anything else.

I think we do both: Orc Ritualists and Calabim Raider Empy Priests. We won't need a lot of Empy Priests, but a few might just prove to be as handy as a Blitz Raider Assassin

Ritualists will cut down on our need for cats (I'd still like 5 or 6 out of Gin soonish....) except for the Southwest/south.
That's Amurite border territory. We'll want some Ritualists and Vampires in the area to keep em honest, but we can't rely on magic vs them until post Al. 5 or 6 cats from Steeler should give us enough time for Mead to finish it's GM/CP/SW and start pumping mob 1/Barrage 1 cats.

Mead is an excellent spot as it is central between both the Wizzard and Clown fronts and is 4 roaded tiles from Shiner Bock. Which is 4 roaded tiles from: Waterloo Dark (our Wizzard crumple city), Guinness (Adept pump for the moment), Mead, Blue, and a half decent staging tile that is 4 tiles from SB, Guinness, Griffon Ale (if the damn elephant ever moves) and WD.

Definitely want some heavy defenses in SB. It's a lynchpin city.

I'm not too worried about that area, we'll have good defense in depth with cheap local units supported by chariots, cats, and eventually fancy toys

It's this area that concerns me:

Looks all nice and optimistic? Yes.

But if we don't either take (preferred) or burn (if we're battered and bloody) Saltus, then we have no hope of putting up meaningful defense on this front. Napa can be easily hit from Saltus (thankfully, that works both ways ) and the next city inline is on flatland.

So if we can't grab Saltus as a buffer we're going to lose Napa, Eiswine and probably Champagne in the event of a serious attack in the area. Saltus also gives a great forward base for staging Hawk scouted Raider missions into the Clown heartland

Still doing some thinking on timing vs sneaky moves. Occupying the Napa site guarantees they notice our movements t110....waiting until t111 risks them FEyeing us and occupying that hill themselves. And I really *don't* want to have to pay the butcher's bill to take that hill away from a C3/EB sword. Other than that....it really depends on if they are FEyeing us in that area and how they interpret what they see. And how many units/hammers they're willing to divert against a maybe attack.

OTOH, as soon as they spot our settler.....they'll be after blood.

So we'll have to see.

[Thoth]

I'd recommend checking the Secret Codes thing, as I was unable to get the GS when the opponents voted against it (I tested it with 3 vs. 3 AW, with everyone bonked into UC from T1. We won the council vote (I think either the human or the first in turn order automatically wins ties.) however were unable to win SC when they voted against it (it still passed, we just didn't get the GS). Despite this, when we did the Nightwatch thing they voted for it and it passed, so I suspect it is something to do with how SC works in a team game.

Based on past experience....the councils can be a little wonky in MP.

I've never been in an MP game where someone didn't want a free GS so I don't know how deadlocks work. In SP you only need 1/2 the votes to pass a resolution, so 2/4 in favour passes.

TBH: I'm pretty convinced that we're better off in UC until after SC than in OC.

Yes, Ellimist and Mardoc we'd save a bit of gold and gain a few beakers.

Look at the demos.


We can afford a bit of a gamble.

I also like the sound of the attacks

Maybe attack.....depending on what we see over the next few turns, we have a number of cuttout points where we can change plans...we won't make the final decision until t114.

[Thoth]

Misdirection and sneakies:

The Blue Box has a 3 move griffon (onna Peak) on it. I'd figured if we took Saltus we could shift it over to the Volcano tile for a lookie see.

But there is a peak 3T due East of the Griffie.

I'd like to move him there turn 110.

Not so much for what he'll see....which will be handy....but for the fact that he'll be seen.


And that might just get them jumping. If I'm not mistaken, that northern Yellow box is a well established, high hammer city.

Perfect for building Gibon in, don't you think.




Oh....and he'd be in position to spot a bit for the Rice WR.

So if the Rice is unguarded t111.....maybe we pillage it then (assuming they haven't bushwhacked the WR in the meantime).
And keep the WR and Griffon visible in the area.

[Thoth]

Also: We'll have Vamps, Ritualists, mass production, Chariots, cats, axes, Moroi, Hawks and Hunters.

Raider Assassins would be bog handy vs Mage spam. Ditto some Warrens built ones.

Screw Ogres,

Av, Empy, PH, Poisons, Math, Eng....

(after present stuff and Feud ofc )


We're going to need a lot of gold to pay for the million Orc/Vampire army.

I think that's manageable.