WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[Rowain]

I didn't think claiming the Fool card would establish me as innocent, although in my opinion it's protown play regardless of my alignment, so I think it should give me a village lean.

Which makes it also a good wolf-play

If I were scum I would rather have sat back and waited to be scanned as innocent. If a scum buddy had the card he could pass it to me.

Not if the card-holder is another high-priority scan-target. Lets just assume zak is the scum with the card. You claim getting immune from scan perhaps binding the watchers,jailers what not that way and zak might get scanned but shows up as villager => easy victory (No I don't name zak as scum That is just an example).

About villager-play: IMO it would have been good play to keep shut play normal and if scanned eat the mislynch and take the card with you.
Or even better: play a good villager-game by finding scum get night-killed and take the card with you.


@Serdoa: I thought about the setup since BRick posted it. It was an instinct reaction based on this.

[uberfish]

bunch of crossposting earlier

@rowain: if novice is scum A and scum B really has the fool card, then claiming is highly risky because both novice and scum B could be busted by the item seer. from a setup design point of view if scum had the fool card, village would most likely have the item seer for counterplay

[Rowain]

@rowain: if novice is scum A and scum B really has the fool card, then claiming is highly risky because both novice and scum B could be busted by the item seer. from a setup design point of view if scum had the fool card, village would most likely have the item seer for counterplay

As long as the GM is not called uberfish I don't have any trust in his balancing. Past games have proven that fact more than once. Yes they all do and did great work with the stories and the ideas and the fun but balancing is a different story.

The only thing BRick assured us is that the village starts with the alignement seer. All other items are up for random or what ever distribution he thought fit. I have no intention to go into a meta-speculation what Brick might or might not have done based on a possible balance that might or might not be there.

[Rowain]

Rowain, you certainly can't have thought through all this in the minute between my claim and your vote, so why exactly did you vote for me?

Was for Serdoa but fits here as well

@Serdoa: I thought about the setup since BRick posted it. It was an instinct reaction based on this.

[Ryan]

It is normal to be overwhelmed on your first game :P ?

[novice]

It is normal to be overwhelmed on your first game :P ?

It's not uncommon. Start in one end and comment on what you can get a grip on. It's better to participate in a subset of the discussion than not participating at all.

[Rowain]

It is normal to be overwhelmed on your first game :P ?

Only for scum

[Serdoa]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, Serdoa. Have I actually considered what he posted? He had only posted one thing at that point, namely "Novice" in red. I said in that very post that the wolves probably won't start with the fool tarot card.

My bad mixing the times up. I thought he had already elaborated at the time you posted that. Too much stuff I commented on.

Claiming to have the card when in fact you don't also seems crazy. Others have elaborated more on why this would be a very risky scum gambit, but for me those observations were enough. I feel more confident now that Novice is town, since there hasn't been a counter-claim (unless that's what Rowain has up his sleeve).

The only "elaboration" I read on this was that the item seer would be able to scan him. Which of course assumes that the item seer is on the village side. What we do not know, though the wolves do. For me, that is at best a very weak reason and certainly not enough to conclude already that this play would be crazy as scum.

You conclude with listing Novice as a suspect "As his play is awfully dangerous for the village if he is wolf and I don't see how it benefits the village right now."

So how should he have played this, if he's innocent, to benefit the village? Claiming miller immediately is textbook play.

I would have waited till the night-phase. Thats early enough to inform the seers, early enough to let us discuss and won't distract Day 1 completely. Of course he is a high-priority target for scanning, though I think that is mostly of his play (playing "mysterious" instead of obviously village) and because of lazy seers, who rather scan novice than think about other targets (and their are several in this game imo). Also, with strong village play, he would probably gotten himself nightkilled, what is fine as well in that case.

But yeah, I agree zak. If he is village, revealing now can make sense. Thats why I did not vote for him outright but only after he made several statements that I found very weak. Because I don't believe him scum for claiming, I only believe it is too early to call him village. For both sides if the circumstances are right claiming can make sense. And therefore I would advise everyone, as in every game, not to put players already in the village-camp, just because of one action. Especially when other actions are not living up to their first claim.

I don't see any reason not to pass the fool card to someone else tonight, so if somebody does, speak up.

I wouldn't. If you do you should let us all know to whom you pass it. But if you are village you do not know if you pass it to scum or village. If you pass it to village and that villager has an item already, he would let the card go to waste of course. But I am not sure if we would be informed about that. If we are, scum would know the name of a villager with a role. If we are not the villager would have to tell us, as he can obviously not pass it on, again revealing a role to scum. If you pass it to scum and we are not informed about items being taken out of the game, scum could tell us that he gave away the card because of another item he has, without doing it for real, giving scum a big advantage.

Therefore, I don't see a reason to pass it on. Maybe others feel different?

I can address the reasons my play makes little sense as a scum gambit, I don't think I'll bother just now though. Serdoa, go play pbem47 instead.

Would love to hear this reasons (especially if they are not again assuming that some roles are or are not a certain alignment or at least only if both possibilities for the role are lined out).

bunch of crossposting earlier

@rowain: if novice is scum A and scum B really has the fool card, then claiming is highly risky because both novice and scum B could be busted by the item seer. from a setup design point of view if scum had the fool card, village would most likely have the item seer for counterplay

Rowain answered that, but I'd like to emphasize that we are playing a very dangerous game when we expect certain things for metagame-reasons without any proof. I think it was proven in several games now that village should never assume any metagaming for certain before it does not have 100% proof of it. Heck, we had several games setup with the clear intention to make the metagaming hard or impossible. And yet we still argue someones innocence with "from a metagame-perspective this can't be, because I would consider it unfair". Unfortunately, as often as I would agree that something is unfair, it still happens more often than not.

[zakalwe]

2. Players may acquire more than one Item at a time but at night they must pass all but one Item to somebody else. They may not intentionally keep more than one Item, and they certainly may not USE more than one Item. If a player begins the night with more than one item, they MUST pass all but one item to other players. They may then also use the item they keep in its intended function.

Serdoa, see the rule above. It looks to me like the only ways an item will be removed from the game is when someone holding an item dies, or when there are more players left alive than items. So I don't think there's any risk involved in Novice passing it on. Though Brick probably needs to clarify the item-related rules before we can say for sure. (In hindsight, these should perhaps have been exposed to public review a bit longer before the game started.)

In general, it seems like passing items around has the potential to generate a lot more information than just holding on to them, as it gets more players involved. So any lies would then have to be expanded into greater webs of lies. Though looking at the actual list of items, I guess I'd really be inclined to hold on to most of them, myself. The card is an exception: it doesn't really matter who has it, as long as we know who that is. But if nobody is actually doubting that Novice has the card (only his alignment), then maybe it's moot.

[Rowain]

@Mattimeo: Lewwyn first and thenAzza have commented on your vote for me. No answer to that? Wy do you think my voting for novice makes me scum?

@uberfish your first reacton to my vote was voting me. I have given my reasons for my vote and why I believe lynching novice is a good thing. Where are your reasons to lynch me? Especially what maks me a better lynch than novice?

@novice: Same question but also: You claim your game makes no sense as scum. How does my play make any sense as scum?