WW 19 Game Thread - Mobster Mayhem - GAME OVER

[Serdoa]

I don't like your post Selrahc. Lets look at it closely:

There are two wagons at the moment.

Rowain: Bizarre insistence that the card is the thing we should be focusing all our energies on, and that the only thing to do is to lynch the holder.

The word "bizzare" is only there to make it obvious to anyone that there can be no reason whatsoever to act like Rowain does. But that is simply not true. I might not agree with his conclusions, but I can easily see where he is coming from - and I am not the only one as some posts in this thread already indicate.

Secondly, he never stated we should focus all our energy on the card. He perceives it as the best lead for a lynch we have and gave reasons for that. I might not agree with that (though again, I can see where he is coming from) but that is besides the point. He simply never stated what you wrote. And this is not a case of you "shortening" what he said and putting down the gist of it. It is you intentionally putting him in a bad light to give more credence to your argument.

Tasunke: Some odd jokes. A possible wolf slip, or possible confused statement.

Hmm.
Rowain.

Tasunke's comments seem like they are ill-considered. But that isn't out of character. There could be malevolence, but I think there probably isn't. Rowain's actions though, I can see something darker underneath.

Again, you don't even try to analyze any of their plays, you just try to paint Rowain in a bad light.

I disagree with his reaction against the card. If the card is really such a problem for the village, it can easily be disposed of by dumping it onto someone who is likely to be lynched or nightkilled, without killing Novice. The issue is nowhere near as binary as he is making it out to be.

The card only passes after the night-phase, so it would be at least around for N1. Also I doubt we can already now tell who is most likely going to be nightkilled or lynched either. Therefore I really don't see how your argument is valid. For me, it seems again like something you wrote, just so you can put down your point that Rowain is the bad guy.

But my issue is really whether or not *he* believes what he is saying. I'm not so sure he does.

Nice sentence. But why? What does give you that believe? Which sentence sprung your alarm? Again, it seems you wrote something just so you can base your argument on it, without giving any reasons how your reached this premise.

Now I'm thinking in particular of some statements Rowain has made in past games about confirmed villagers as a wolf. In the FFH game, he was quite annoyed that as a wolf his kills were more or less proscribed into killing confirmed villagers day after day, and that the game was basically lost by that. So as a wolf, I think he would be both much more against the idea of anybody being put into the village camp, and more willing than most wolves to sacrifice himself to stop such a thing.

Thats not true Selrahc. Rowain is a good enough player that he knows that sacrificing himself just for one villager is not going to benefit the wolves. Again, an argument just made to paint Rowain as the bad guy, without any base for it. In that case it is even obviously wrong what your write when one just thinks a minute about it.

From his wolfish perspective, letting an actual villager be perceived widely as a villager locks in a kill, and lessens the wolf power to influence. By attacking so strongly, the desired effect is to cast a pallor of suspicion over Novice even if he doesn't manage to secure the lynch. The only thing that could go wrong would be his own lynch in reaction... but starting from such a position might well be unpalatable to him as a wolf.

The same argument you made already above, just said again with different words. Doesn't make it more true though.

Btw: You guys all realized that the Fool-Tarot-Card is not working like the Miller (showing the player always as scum in scans) but does work in giving the seer the opposite result from what he should have got? Thats not the same as a Miller at all, maybe you should start to take that into account.

Oh, and

Selrahc

That post was really, really bad in just trying to make Rowain look bad without actually giving any real argument to it. I don't like that. Most of the time that means you have either a lazy villager - but that was to much effort for one, or you have a scum trying his best to drive a wagon home. And I believe that is what we see here: A scum seeing an "easy" mislynch, trying to lock it in.

[Ryan]

Serdoa why don't you agree with lynching the tarot card holder and getting rid of the item ? Don't you think it's the best lead ?

P.s what does x-post mean?

[Azza]

I think the novice situation needs to be resolved.

So Rowain.

I almost hesitate to comment on this, because I'm tiring of the whole subject, but what exactly is it that needs to be resolved? You make it sound like one of them must be scum and the other must be town. How did you reach that conclusion?

I don't believe that one must be scum and the other must be town. I'm leaning novice as scum because instant claiming isn't something I'd do if I had the card. I also don't want to put up with speculation of the fool card and where it is for days on end. Removing any uncertainty with the Ouija Board is invaluable.

[Selrahc]

The word "bizzare" is only there to make it obvious to anyone that there can be no reason whatsoever to act like Rowain does. But that is simply not true. I might not agree with his conclusions, but I can easily see where he is coming from - and I am not the only one as some posts in this thread already indicate.

I really disagree with it.
It's a house of cards, built on premises that I disagree with and that are objectively unlikely, and he is hammering it again and again and again. So much so that there must be some ulterior motive here.

What are the objectively unlikely bits?
He is basing ideas on specific combinations of items on the wolf teams, which shift to fit his arguments as needed. The crowbar, lockpick, cloak, and all other items are shuffled in and out of his idea of the wolf team in an unending quest to paint Novice bad.

He is working from the idea that the Fool card is a big fricking deal. It isn't. It isn't some sort of big harmful thing, even if it gets into wolf hands, since we're not planning to work solely off the card.

He is also saying that the best way to get rid of the card is to kill Novice, despite other methods existing to remove the card.

These three axioms combine to make me feel like his priority isn't getting rid of the wolves. Ostensibly, it is to get rid of the fool card. I don't think that makes sense as an objective for a villager either. So what could his objective be? In my opinion, it is to negate a village lean that several people stated on Novice. Something that fits with what I know of Rowains opinions of how to play a wolf.

I'm sorry if that isn't a real enough argument for you. It feels real enough to me.

[Azza]

Serdoa why don't you agree with lynching the tarot card holder and getting rid of the item ? Don't you think it's the best lead ?

P.s what does x-post mean?

x-post = crosspost

[Lewwyn]

on phone, but I like the movement. Disagree that the most important thing is to get rid of the card. Forget that, that is a distraction. We know where the card is or should be now. We don`t need to lynch novice we just have him pass the card. If in the morning that person has it we for sure where it is. This defeats the possible scum having the card without us knowing. I mean why destroy it when you can simply play musical chairs with it so we know where it is??? Why mislynch to destroy something that doesn`t even matter? You guys realize that as long as we know where the card is any scans will be 100percent correct?

Lets lynch away from this distraction. I support a selrahc or azza lynch atm. Can`t get color to work on my phone.

[Ryan]

on phone, but I like the movement. Disagree that the most important thing is to get rid of the card. Forget that, that is a distraction. We know where the card is or should be now. We don`t need to lynch novice we just have him pass the card. If in the morning that person has it we for sure where it is. This defeats the possible scum having the card without us knowing. I mean why destroy it when you can simply play musical chairs with it so we know where it is??? Why mislynch to destroy something that doesn`t even matter? You guys realize that as long as we know where the card is any scans will be 100percent correct?

Lets lynch away from this distraction. I support a selrahc or azza lynch atm. Can`t get color to work on my phone.

Still dont get how will you guys know it is being passed.

[Serdoa]

Serdoa why don't you agree with lynching the tarot card holder and getting rid of the item ? Don't you think it's the best lead ?

P.s what does x-post mean?

I never agree with simply lynching someone if there is not a good lead first. I don't see a good lead yet. And even IF lynching him would be the best action due to the card, I would not pursue it right now, because I'd rather get more out of this day. But I certainly will reassess this possibility, and soon.

The word "bizzare" is only there to make it obvious to anyone that there can be no reason whatsoever to act like Rowain does. But that is simply not true. I might not agree with his conclusions, but I can easily see where he is coming from - and I am not the only one as some posts in this thread already indicate.

I really disagree with it.
It's a house of cards, built on premises that I disagree with and that are objectively unlikely, and he is hammering it again and again and again. So much so that there must be some ulterior motive here.

Please show me the hammering. I've read this thread, but I can't find it. Yes, he brings forth his arguments but that is BECAUSE he is questioned about them. That something is explain himself when questioned should not be construed as him hammering his point. You do the same thing you did in your last post, you try to paint him in a bad light and don't even mind to twist the reality so that it better fits your argument.

What are the objectively unlikely bits?
He is basing ideas on specific combinations of items on the wolf teams, which shift to fit his arguments as needed. The crowbar, lockpick, cloak, and all other items are shuffled in and out of his idea of the wolf team in an unending quest to paint Novice bad.

Not true, the items never shifted. I also don't remember him bringing up the cloak. The only items necessary for this to work as a scum-ploy are the card itself and the item-seer. Lockpick would be neat additionally. Doesn't seem to far off to believe that they have those items - but thats not the point anyhow. The point is that you have again put words in his mouth that he never said, just for the sake of your argument. Or said in different words:

You lie.

He is working from the idea that the Fool card is a big fricking deal. It isn't. It isn't some sort of big harmful thing, even if it gets into wolf hands, since we're not planning to work solely off the card.

He does not. He states that without better leads lynching novice is the best we could do as we either get rid of the card or of a scum. Again, you lie.

He is also saying that the best way to get rid of the card is to kill Novice, despite other methods existing to remove the card.

Which methods and how would the exactly work and at what point in the game would they work and with how many item-uses of others? Care to elaborate? Right now that reads more like something you throw out because most players will simply not question it any further and except that part. I do not.

These three axioms combine to make me feel like his priority isn't getting rid of the wolves. Ostensibly, it is to get rid of the fool card. I don't think that makes sense as an objective for a villager either. So what could his objective be? In my opinion, it is to negate a village lean that several people stated on Novice. Something that fits with what I know of Rowains opinions of how to play a wolf.

So, basically, you have nothing to base all your "Rowain is a wolf" on, except for assumptions you have about why he acted in a specific way. A specific way that he actually NEVER acted like, despite you telling us he did.

I'm sorry if that isn't a real enough argument for you. It feels real enough to me.

It sure feels wolfish enough. I did that, but it looks better and better every minute, so

Selrahc

[Rowain]

Is it ever sure Rowain, or are you just nitpicking?

You just used this excuse the very last game when you tried to distance yourself from a lynch as wolf.

Besides have you looked at my list? What says you to it? Has you read my posts?
Yes getting rid of the card trumps lynching a random villager. Are you of different opinion? You rather want the card in play and lynch a villager?

uberfish voted immediatly a fast reaction but you laid back watched the whole thing develop while uttering what a good play it was from novice while you should know that there are at least differnt opinions about how to play it. You introduced WW here at RB. Who but you should know full well that there are people that think someone claiming the miller should be lynched? And now that is suddenly a clear scum-tell? But wait while it is soo clear for you in your post till you vote at the end we again find a distancing It's not sure really so once rowain turns villager don't look at me - post from you.

I think the chances of you beeing scum just trumped my reasons for the novice-lynch

Selrahc

[Ryan]

Selrahc